Text extraction. See Typescript Archive
09:19:17
09:19:17 From Paul Rodwell just edit the image and modify the location
09:19:18 From Jeff Miller me and compulsive note taking
09:20:18 From Robert Sterbal 1940s NYC: https://1940s.nyc/map/photo/nynyma_rec0040_1_00764_0073#15.2/40.740066/-73.994717
09:20:29 From Jeff Miller knowledge design patterns
09:21:00 From Robert Best Oh yea, I forgot it has that little form... sorry, haven't done a lot of image uploading to wiki yet.
09:21:10 From Robert Sterbal ChatGPT constantly gives me the wrong answer
09:21:20 From Jeff Miller right, when I left the image location off on the new phone
09:23:49 From Marc Pierson Here is a list of a non-programmer’s pages on FedWiki: https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/fedwiki/view/search-for-fedwiki
09:24:44 From Jeff Miller "have you tried turning wiki mode on and off again" - (reconstitute the backlinks)
09:26:03 From Jeff Miller Wholeness -- does it work? Goodness -- is the value clear and uncluttered? Delight -- can you see its generative potential?
09:27:14 From Jeff Miller Which of C. Alexander's principles could generate the others by _emergence_? (Wholeness, Goodness, Delight) [in a context not limited to the built architectural world] "emergence depends on structural behavior" / (common across multiple domains)
09:28:04 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/15-properties-of-wholeness
09:28:58 From Jeff Miller "my present self is writing a gift to my future self and others" "What would it mean to write wiki pages in a poetic form, inspired by Richard Gabriel's haiku practice? Can other people feel the delightful unfolding that I feel?"
09:30:24 From Jeff Miller When collaborating, the structure I use for a knowledge garden: six paragraphs, three links, a diagram.
09:30:34 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/15-properties-of-wholeness/view/beauty-good-truth-economy
09:31:40 From Jeff Miller "Every page you write in the garden, make it beautiful." - Thompson Morrison to co-authors.
09:33:07 From Jeff Miller [how does a translator of a poem maintain the beauty?] - Ward, on the process of supporting T.M.'s book; also the emergent gains from the structure in being able to shape the book. A benefit of the wiki haiku format is that it can be gardened (shaped, reconnected, selected) while maintaining properties of beauty.
09:34:16 From Paul Rodwell some would say, something along the lines of - immutable data structures, pure functions, mutators for modifying (data, ui, storage)
09:34:18 From Jeff Miller "If we look for beauty we might find things that no one else would find, because no one else is looking." from Ward
09:36:13 From Jeff Miller "The CSS is kind of a mess; people say you can't refactor CSS, but should throw it away. How about this?" - Eric, on CSS for mobile etc. (via Ward) Eric reports a conversation with a programmer, possibly one of the contributors to Glamorous Toolkit alongside Tibor.
09:37:18 From Jeff Miller (re CSS factoring and exploration) Konrad Hinsen, I think. http://blog.khinsen.net/posts/2019/12/31/pharo-year-one/
09:38:45 From Jeff Miller the most recent post is a reference to The Garden and the Stream.
09:39:11 From Marc Pierson Wouldn’t it be interesting if the main attraction in the FedWiki coding community is the shared experience of beauty!
09:40:21 From Jeff Miller Konrad Hinsen's old blog was succeeded by a new knowledge garden site with multiple tabs. https://science-in-the-digital-era.khinsen.net/#Welcome
09:41:03 From Robert Sterbal How I listen to the call when I'm AFK
09:42:13 From Andrew Shell Dorian Taylor is gradually writing a book translating Christopher Alexander’s work to software. https://the.natureof.software/introduction
09:42:15 From Paul Rodwell So we don’t forget. Unless it is now working, there is the problem that Marc shared the other day to look at.
09:42:36 From Jeff Miller a panda netsuke speaker? (to RS)
09:44:34 From Robert Sterbal bluetooth
09:44:47 From Jeff Miller add 👍
09:45:24 From Robert Sterbal Replying to "bluetooth" It saves me from connecting multiple times to a zoom meeting.
09:45:25 From Jeff Miller stigmergic iteration - "aha, I can do that"
09:46:53 From Jeff Miller Thompson Morrison's intent: making programming accessible to learners at the 6th-7th grade levels, in a way that participation and experimentation is accessible, and that the experience of working with the knowledge system sparks interest, engagement, competence, and cooperation. (paraphrase and interpretation)
09:47:36 From Robert Sterbal My middle schooler just wants to do theatre
09:47:38 From Jeff Miller "the compliant learner" / "the non-compliant learner" - a troublemaker who is likely to check out. "you shouldn't have to be a nerd" - other fields and interests should be accessible to and with the tools, so that the digital tools are not remote and arcane
09:49:32 From Jeff Miller Feynman - known as a bit of a showman, but partially so that he could convey how the people he learned from at Los Alamos think differently. (Ward's description of Feynman's experience)
09:50:32 From Marc Pierson http://found.ward.fed.wiki/view/los-alamos-from-below
09:50:56 From Jeff Miller (Ward describes the engaged discussion of a set of people at Los Alamos who raised different ideas of how to make something work, and after going around the table, they all nodded and said "Compton had the right idea, that's what will go with.")
09:51:26 From Marc Pierson Feynman diagrams? for computing?
09:51:45 From Jeff Miller beautiful and expressive and the "Visual Explanations" author likes them a lot, he did a personal art project on them (Tufte)
09:52:35 From Marc Pierson http://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/testing-eip-graphviz
09:52:37 From Robert Sterbal Reacted to "http://marc.relocali..." with 👍 Replying to "and the "Visual Expl..." Feynman Diagrams, Edward Tufte sculptures and exhibits [ET's Feynman diagrams are] "Art, science, authenticity, precision, beauty, insight." — Chris Quigg, theoretical physicist at Fermilab, author of Gauge Theories of the Strong, Weak, and Electromagnetic Interactions. ET's stainless steel Feynman Diagrams are installed at the new World Trade Center building, Fermilabs, Hogpen Hill Farms, and in many private collections. A current exhibition is at the Williamson Gallery, ArtCenter College for Design. Planning in underway for an exhibit at the Nobel Museum in Stockholm honoring Richard Feynman's 100th birthday.
09:53:48 From Paul Rodwell I’ll copy in this definition of spike - from elsewhere - Spikes are a type of SAFe Enabler Story. Defined initially in Extreme Programming (XP), spikes represent activities such as exploration, architecture, infrastructure, research, design, and prototyping. Their purpose is to gain the knowledge necessary to reduce the risk of a technical approach, better understand a requirement, or increase the reliability of a story estimate.
09:55:05 From Jeff Miller oh, the three column work!
09:56:14 From Jeff Miller Aliveness is a somewhat specific term that I recognize as Christopher Alexander's language. "feasible" "desirable" -> sustainable ?
09:57:28 From Jeff Miller the shape of things regulars are interested in the shape of things I'd describe Ward's code as revelatory crystals.
09:58:30 From Jeff Miller The smallest complete working demonstration of the notion. (my answer to Thompson's question about beautiful code, with reference to Ward's style)
10:00:09 From Jeff Miller from Eric: "when there's nothing else to take away" as a measure of completion related to beauty, with reference to Michaelangelo's revealing a statue by removing all the marble that is extraneous (lightbulb) making use of Observable's framework?
10:02:02 From Jeff Miller I'm pleased to know that the computational notebook field has something to offer FedWiki in a very direct way. [here is a label](http: / / this.is.the.link) [label](//:link)
10:04:34
10:04:34 From Jeff Miller FedWiki has felt like it's been in a design conversation with knowledge gardens / tools for thought / linked notes, and also in conversation with computational notebooks and literate programming (Python / Jupyter, Observable Notebook, Glamorous Toolkit / Lepiter Notebook).
10:04:57 From Robert Sterbal Have you tried the extension Tabli?
10:05:48 From Jeff Miller Tabli: Chrome-browser specific tab organizer?
10:05:57 From Robert Sterbal Yep has a nice search feature
10:06:27 From Jeff Miller (I use Firefox, where % is the prefix for tab-searching, which helps a lot)
10:07:14 From Robert Sterbal Replying to "and the "Visual Expl..." Lots of photos on the bottom of this page: https://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0003oo
10:07:22 From Marc Pierson Would it be useful and possible for the FedWiki to return a likely diagnosis when various functions seem to be failing from the POV of the enduser? The google console seem to return too many diagnoses.
10:08:21 From Jeff Miller "One of the cool tricks about Observable's library is that they give you a DOM element that you can then do additional work on, like setting targets. My plugin interpreter for the demo is this toDOM() function"
10:09:54 From Jeff Miller "It's really not very much code, on top of the Observable libraries. There's a lot of Observable code that makes it possible to factor the plugin item in this wiki spike down to a few lines per item."
10:10:14 From Robert Best To dom or not to dom
10:10:31 From Jeff Miller (Eric describes the structure of the code as being very closely mapped to the structure of a wiki lineup, page, panel, and item) (It factors well into the Observable libraries for DOM manipulation)
10:11:38 From Jeff Miller that was something I discovered in running Ward's functional tests! the lineup is CSS! (had to download and save a single CSS file)
10:12:54 From Jeff Miller Mike Bostock's libraries - a standard open-source reactive library available for use (per Paul R.'s note) "the topological sort of the [data processing] dependencies in Observable Notebook is interesting as a concept for wiki as programming environment"
10:15:03 From Jeff Miller "I invented toDOM, making the FedWiki items live and clickable, by making use of the html, md, svg definitions of reactive behavior from Observable" (paraphrase) "Here's an example showing Observable's Markdown syntax to point to a Sofi SVG via link."
10:16:09 From Jeff Miller (if I got that interpretation like) "Federated Wiki is about a fourth as complicated as enriching and rendering SoFi, by lines of rendering code." - Ward.
10:17:53 From Jeff Miller Thompson asks Eric: when you reflect on the code with respect to beauty, what did you learn in your exercise of reimplementing the FedWiki client renderer?
10:18:58 From Jeff Miller Eric says: The reason I want something minimal, is because I have to live with this code and I want to make it as small and simple as I can. When I look at Observable, the boilerplate that I have to wrestle with has a common shape; there's a lot the feels maintainable. Thompson Morrison: "the intention is focused, something that you can name; everything else is taken away; if you do that, you can use the code in other implementations, in other deployments, later. wholeness, goodness, delight. "
10:20:17 From Robert Sterbal elegant?
10:21:00 From Jeff Miller Thompson: "can you explain these principles of beauty in code in ways that others can appreciate, once you demonstrate them? can we take these abstract concepts and make them transferrable to others?"
10:23:16 From Jeff Miller "I'd like us to take this as a challenge. How do we show up as developers, how do we work together, so that the principles of beautiful code are the way we work, in ways that we can share, understand, and carry forward?" (paraphrase / interpretation of last) RS: "elegant" conveys some of those qualities: simple and clear and composable / usable
10:25:54
10:25:54 From Jeff Miller "broadcast channel" - "once I understood how the Observable code worked, after an hour of finding where the messages go (everywhere but the broadcast origin), I was able to demonstrate keeping two pages in sync. I think I should broadcast changes to the sitemap, and not to the lineup." "when a page changes in a site's sitemap, then any lineup with that page present can be updated"
10:27:37 From Jeff Miller for the demo, a single method named "update", which changes the lineup - a thing that looks like wiki, that needs to be visual, to see the evidence of the code in the spike doing things that I intended communication between the frame and the parent in the frame plugin, what are the APIs that I want to be able to manipulate a wiki page? adjacent and related to the pragmas that Ward has been working on for the test framework, maybe a slightly lower level than a click?
10:28:53 From Jeff Miller (Ward and Eric in discussion over functional testing, frame plugins, scripting fedwiki) when do we operate on pages? when do we create ghost pages?
10:31:53
10:31:53 From Jeff Miller "if you fork something from history, then the old page should be a ghost" (a Ward and Paul update to which page is the "white" or "no halo" presentation?)
10:33:01 From Jeff Miller (it's taken me a while to see the way the pages and history are in dialogue, so I can ask a question like that!)
10:34:07 From Marc Pierson Kerry just added: “Beauty is coherence and harmony.”
10:34:19 From Jeff Miller I inferred my question from seeing examples over time of how people used pages, of getting frame scripts explained to me, of observing plugin behavior like the Lineup Diagram, of clicking the hamburger menu and seeing a page pop up in the lineup) Thanks to Kerry for that!
10:35:01 From Marc Pierson Eric, this feels like it may lead to end user control on neighborhood and lineup control.
10:35:34 From Jeff Miller "elegance" - RS "coherence and harmony" - Kerry simple interface, well named composed abstractions - Eric on Observable's libraries
10:36:15 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/15-ps
10:36:26 From Jeff Miller Thompson observes: Everyone looking at Eric's code was delighted that it was easy to see the shape and intention (para)
10:36:47 From Marc Pierson How is beauty realized at each of the 15 steps?
10:37:10 From Jeff Miller Thompson observes: and then the discussion of the broadcast channel experience and demo, *that* yielded Jeff's question of "what if?" as emergent.
10:37:42 From Marc Pierson Maybe Kerry’s definition moves toward an answer. How is coherence realized at each of the 15 steps.
10:38:58 From Jeff Miller Thompson observes: this is the entire cycle of wholeness, goodness, and delight, in Eric's work and in the community here's responses to it.
10:40:18 From Jeff Miller Eric observes: "trying to recreate the experience of working in Smalltalk as an inspiration for Federated Wiki, or for other work; that the code was right there, it was clear and simple. Describing the lineup as a stack is another concept which emerges."
10:40:38 From Marc Pierson Is a stack and nesting recursion? Emergent nesting?
10:41:19 From Jeff Miller Lineup as Stack is a way that makes sense of engaging with it, by looking up and left for data.
10:41:54 From Marc Pierson I would like to better understand “stack”.
10:42:01 From Jeff Miller however we manipulate the lineup in direct ways that remind me a lot of how the Forth language treats the stack as current workspace. Stack as data structure: "push-down stack" by analogy of a spring-loaded dish stack in a cafeteria you only operate on the top of the stack, placing or removing one dish
10:43:01 From Paul Rodwell only not really a stack (as you can reorder and remove items other than the most recent).
10:43:27 From Jeff Miller exactly, much more like Forth treats a stack as a workspace "the cards on the table" "move the cards around, call an operator that wants the last three cards in this order"
10:44:53 From Jeff Miller and for me, a lineup of cards (in the context of wiki and patterns) brings inevitably to my mind the process of working with CRC cards Thompson has been excellent for framing the shape of the work that reminds me of what keeps me showing up.
10:48:09
10:48:09 From Jeff Miller (Thompson / Ward / Eric / Marc) has been a really generative set of conversation partners. "Javascript is still capable of inventing its own future; but twenty versions are not empowering to a user community. CoffeeScript has in many ways been a successful effort inspiring ES6."
10:49:13 From Jeff Miller javascript against the DOM interactive, visual, flexible
10:50:48 From Jeff Miller (Marc mentions Dov Dori's systems modeling language)
10:52:12 From Jeff Miller Object-Process Methodology, ISO 19450. https://dovdori.technion.ac.il/ (discussion of evolution of web standards: HTML5 / ES6 / CSS3 as vendor-driven, consortium-driven work)
10:53:58 From Jeff Miller "Industry has paid the bills for getting HTML5 and ES6 on everyone's laptop. Is there still enough rope, enough freedom of movement, for us to work."
10:56:26 From Marc Pierson Cuneiform to sound based language seems like a paradigm shift.
10:56:33 From Paul Rodwell now up to ES13 (2022)
10:56:58 From Jeff Miller Eric to Marc: "I think what's underway now is language. It's not one set of abstractions for code. Humans invent languages that divide each other, and we'll keep doing that with programming languages. What changes is what counts as literacy. We might be fifty years away from programming as part of literacy. But programming is how you use our new printing press, in a social metaphor. Where we're ahead of the other kids on the internet, there's a magic of an abstraction -- general-purpose hypermedia -- that _authoring_ in hypermedia is rare. Thompson is one of the few literate authors here who writes for that world." Eric: "I imagine that writing scripts in hypermedia is as accessible as working with a spreadsheet; that puts you in a different world."
10:57:57 From Robert Sterbal sorting and filtering in hypermedia is annoying
10:58:36 From Jeff Miller "It's just a little weird, still." - E. Thompson: "I'm pushing hard on the Tools for Thought side, and it's also interesting seeing where we can enable Tools for Computation and Tools for Thinking as part of the environment."
10:59:36 From Marc Pierson How can the FedWiki be a way to make living safer (safety) prevent inevitable errors?
11:00:02 From Jeff Miller Thompson: "The work that we did bringing that last book to life convinced me that we can see where we're heading with this work. The next chapter, the next 3-5 years, are ones that could create an inflection point. We want to move forward with a lot of confidence."