Text extraction. See Typescript Archive
09:27:34
09:27:34 From Jeff Miller (context: difficulties learning from operations incidents, difficulty escalating and engaging the responsible people during an incident) sigh hmmm who has OWNERSHIP? Microsoft seemed a little better on this count. escalation anyway
09:28:44 From Jeff Miller barrel of vacuum cleaner monkeys
09:28:45 From Robert Sterbal all of our managers work 24/7/365 they aren't called often
09:29:07 From Jeff Miller nod What Would Netflix Do?
09:29:41 From Robert Sterbal my rule is I won't push back at a call if it is more than 30 days after the last one from the person I'm flexible
09:30:10 From Jeff Miller "crash-only software" one of my hobbyhorses hmm not the species the system evolution under an overdriven sysem
09:30:36 From Robert Sterbal On to a fed wiki question... can I get the links to open a window to the left?
09:30:48 From Jeff Miller "open a window to the left" hmm maybe open a new TAB with a window to the left in a new lineup? extrractive plunder mechanisms
09:32:14 From Robert Sterbal My college gave the ~24 students self governance
09:32:20 From Jeff Miller Marick's podcast: a joke in the episode with Jessica Kerr
09:32:21 From Paul Rodwell open to the right, then drag to the left. Maybe
09:32:37 From Jeff Miller was "the whole podcast is footnotes to Seeing Like a State"
09:32:55 From Robert Sterbal https://www.deepsprings.edu/self-governance/#student-body
09:33:05 From Jeff Miller bottom-up agile
09:33:06 From Robert Sterbal Paul, I want that to be a setting
09:33:15 From Jeff Miller vs top-down Agile As A Consulting Installation
09:34:17 From Jeff Miller (brb feeding the crows)
09:36:22 From Jeff Miller crows have been fed
09:37:48 From Jeff Miller Marick was talking in one of his podcasts about the disconcerting notion that between himself, his pair partner, and the unit tests, that TOGETHER they had a handle on the system state.
09:38:57 From Eric Dobbs Thatâs a story about joint cognitive systems. I have a couple wiki pages on that line: http://wiki.dbbs.co/joint-cognitive-whiteboard.html
09:39:32 From Robert Best Outbox-only activitypub publishing of mastodon snapshot threadification/ backups
09:39:37 From Jeff Miller Disconcerting to Marick because he was used to having a clear mental picture himself.
09:39:44 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groove_Networks
09:39:57 From Robert Best On wiki
09:40:22 From Jeff Miller oh hmm, OneNote? ah no SharePoint! and OneDrive.
09:42:14 From Jeff Miller "every page has its own SQL database" - Marc talking about [Groove ?] (check, yes, Groove) what did Groove have that FedWiki did not? accommodation of intermittent connectivity
09:43:16 From Jeff Miller threaded conversations (Marc and Ward discussing Groove)
09:43:34 From Eric Dobbs One Udel article about Ozzie & Groove. https://jonudell.net/bytecols/2000-10-25.html
09:44:10 From Jeff Miller I followed Udell very early archive.org ? follow Ray Ozzie's trajectory of interest over time what did he find technically interesting in human communication?
09:45:50 From Jeff Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Ozzie
09:48:22
09:48:22 From Jeff Miller PLATO at UIUC, VisiCalc and TK Solver with Bricklin and Frankston, Lotus Syphony, Lotus Notes (based on PLATO experiences), Groove Networks, FUSE Labs, Microsoft CTO, oh hey wait, I worked with FUSE Labs folks at Microsoft! the FUSE Labs folks got merged into Power Virtual Agents (chatbots as a service)
09:49:17 From Paul Rodwell currently https://blues.io/about/
09:50:38 From Jeff Miller you can hide a lot of mistakes in much of Big Business not yet extinguished when I was there
09:51:00 From Eric Dobbs Trying to find a different article I remember of Udel describing, maybe expanding, insights from Ozzie. Wish I had a wiki page for it.
09:51:14 From Paul Rodwell also https://safecast.org/
09:51:44 From Robert Sterbal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies
09:51:51 From Jeff Miller economic anthropology durable predictable surpluses drive territorial behavior and wars
09:53:00 From Jeff Miller a hierarchy of management requires an extractive process to support the hierarchy https://ferd.ca/the-law-of-stretched-cognitive-systems.html oh hey I just followed Fred Hebert on Mastodon
09:54:09 From Jeff Miller pursue innovation -> advantage seeking
09:54:27 From Robert Best Found this last night and thought wiki would maybe do something similar for offline sending files to any device using webrtc https://github.com/szimek/sharedrop
09:54:36 From Paul Rodwell I probably should create a new Mastodon account đ¤
09:56:04 From Jeff Miller "seeking advantage in situations of people dealing with other people" (context: group and factional competition) "The Amazing Resilience of Bone"
09:57:22 From Jeff Miller https://www.adaptivecapacitylabs.com/blog/2020/01/23/the-resilience-of-bone-and-resilience-engineering/ osteoplasts, osteoclasts ?
09:58:47 From Jeff Miller picture visible in the above link of a broken and healed femur
09:59:34 From Paul Rodwell loosely connected - The Infinite Monkey Cage - Ancient DNA Secrets - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0fwwxpv
10:01:12 From Jeff Miller cow with an adapted healing case for a dislocated hip joint, a pelvis which formed a new working joint over years of the cow's life
10:03:22 From Jeff Miller "Orthopedic surgeons do not heal bone. They create the conditions for natural processes to heal the bone in a desirable way" ~ paraphrase
10:04:36 From Jeff Miller we run our brains rather hot "crocodiles" as the opposite of humans: little changed tribe of creatures since before the dinosaurs -- subsistence focus? also sharks
10:06:03 From Jeff Miller humans are in a different dynamical regime from crocodiles and sharks
10:07:20 From Paul Rodwell https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.adh0066 via New Scientist
10:08:46 From Robert Sterbal Known isn't evolutionary
10:10:38 From Robert Sterbal Musk has made billions on twitter selling cars
10:16:36
10:16:36 From Marc Pierson Presence. Groove Virtual Office keeps track of contacts and lets users know who is online, and if any of them are currently active in a shared workspace Presence. Groove Virtual Office keeps track of contacts and lets users know who is online, and if any of them are currently active in a shared workspace
Personal communication. Groove Virtual Office provides a variety of communication media, including instant messages, real-time and persistent chat, and Voice over IP. These capabilities uniquely enable Groove Virtual Office to be something far more than a convenient way to share files and information. Instead, they transform a simple information container into a vibrant, active workspace where people share, discuss, debate, decide and act. In other words â it becomes the place where work actually gets done
10:17:31 From Ward Cunningham https://www.villagecoffeeshopboulder.com/
10:18:34 From Marc Pierson Was Groove a vision of FedWiki as a collaborative work space. Nothing lost from FedWiki.
10:21:12
10:21:12 From Marc Pierson http://web.archive.org/web/20060501190500/http://www.groove.net/pdf/backgrounder/GVO-Backgrounder.pdf
10:22:35 From Jeff Miller data presentation data manipulation data composition preserving the wiki nature in some way?
10:25:54
10:25:54 From Jeff Miller (there's an article about dependency recomputation, as an aside, comparing spreadsheets and makefiles and Google Blaze)
10:26:56 From Jeff Miller https://github.com/observablehq/runtime/blob/main/test/module/value-test.js API assertions about modules tests as testimony to design "reachable" - transitive relationships in the DAG of dependencies ?
10:28:39 From Jeff Miller "Starting from a runtime, give me a module. Given those, when I do This Thing, I expect That Thing." <3
10:33:41
10:33:41 From Jeff Miller (nose pressed, figuratively, to the glass, as Eric demonstrates walking through the async generator try/finally logic in Observable)
10:34:54 From Jeff Miller Ward reports an observation: "async [Javascript] has generators at its core"
10:35:21 From Peter Dimitrios ObservableHQ is as interesting as understanding how NodeJS does it's thing
10:35:54 From Jeff Miller JS, yes. NodeJS (?) oh I guess I see what you mean NodeJS deployed as a server THAT took me a while to understand and it is a fragile understanding there's a deferred compute cycle which you could understand as a generator in the background which gets polled in a cooperative multitasking sort of way
10:38:15 From Jeff Miller I used to see a lot of yellow halos when I was first trying out FedWiki on the dojo site (to Ward's observation about hosting FedWIki in Singapore)
10:39:21 From Jeff Miller (to add 200ms round trip time and ensure the wiki client/server interaction is robust)
10:40:29 From Robert Sterbal I walk up the hills
10:42:33 From Paul Rodwell tryâŚfinally in async generator - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/AsyncGenerator/return#return_value
10:42:56 From Jeff Miller oh hmmmm the very latest commit to value-test.js is a big refactor of the test mechanism and the dependencies of JS using ECMAscript modules. https://github.com/observablehq/runtime/commit/9e1817b280ff5a953aecb305b3ce3adba8365aae#diff-e655df410d55ddc82ac0de4bc145ba665884e906faab60ef13d76a21d03d7a64
10:44:16 From Jeff Miller consolidation of "tape" and "test" into "assert".
10:44:20 From Robert Best Christian and calix from wiki cafe are working on Thompson's new server and are stuck. I told them the could hop on this call for some help. I think they will arrive soon. I'm still multi-tasking... Keep in mind calix uses they/them pronouns
10:45:12 From Jeff Miller ty Robert B. Christian (he) + calix (they) may arrive for troubleshooting soon?
10:45:21 From Robert Sterbal Reacted to "ty Robert B. Christi..." with đ
10:46:47 From Robert Best Yes
10:48:54 From Jeff Miller (Ward discusses: how do we make the vernacular more accessible? Bostock's attention to Observable Notebook for data science and data visualization ends up being accessible for that context) Can we (in FedWiki) help guide the exploration of ideas, and also collaborative computation? Truth-seeking in collaboration.
10:50:12 From Jeff Miller Can we understand Observable's successes for the sake of FedWiki? scaling deployment of fedwiki for Thompson, will Calix' help.
10:53:06
10:53:06 From Jeff Miller https://github.com/observablehq/runtime/blob/main/test/hello-world.html (needs /dist/runtime.js in order to build from the head) (Eric's report on seeing the Observable tests running) okay that makes me want to try running it (I am following Eric and Paul's report with great enthusiasm)
10:58:02
10:58:02 From Calix ~ they/them [Calix, Eric, and Paul diagnose some wiki OAuth problems related to work supporting a many-user deployment for Thompson Morrison's work]
11:09:29
11:09:29 From Robert Best Will do đ
11:09:39 From Jeff Miller "You get to hear some of the assumptions that experts exclude when you listen in to a mentoring conversation, and that's a rare gift." (paraphrase of Eric)
11:13:40
11:13:40 From Paul Rodwell think there is something written about how to extend deps.
11:15:54 From Jeff Miller Google Page Creator, a famous Slashdot of its era
11:19:12
11:19:12 From Jeff Miller another page to the right! (a JSON inspector plugin page) using Bostock's inspector "If you want to save the JSON of a page, you can use /Save Link As.../" and that will navigate to the JSON source of a page which you can save as content within another page!
11:20:38 From Jeff Miller (Ward and Eric discuss affordances of navigating wiki pages and looking at the underlying JSON source in various contexts) On-Click - various sorts of hijacked behavior for the FedWii client, allowing LineUp behavior But since the links are normal anchor links
11:21:56 From Jeff Miller a right-click/ menu-click still fetches the page content as plain JSON source for export Ward says: "we discovered this as a found affordance" Paul points out: "And you can drag the JSON back into the lineup to become a wiki page." (via "Import")
11:23:30 From Jeff Miller Ward points out that exchange away from the WWW is possible by exchanging JSON pages (Eric continues to demonstrate CSS Spikes, wiki client and lineup using the Observable library)
11:25:21 From Robert Best I shared this earlier because I was thinking you could do an offline local only file swapping thing with wiki using the "save as" Json thing that you just shared about. File swapping between any device with a modern enough browser. Written in JS and open source I think https://github.com/szimek/sharedrop
11:27:18 From Jeff Miller Firefox has a neat trick where you can search in tabs by prefixing a search with %
11:29:02 From Paul Rodwell https://github.com/observablehq/inspector
11:29:29 From Jeff Miller div as receiver / filter of events? oh object behind it, ViewController ?
11:30:08 From Paul Rodwell and https://github.com/observablehq/runtime/blob/main/README.md#observers
11:30:12 From Jeff Miller Observable's reactive style of Javascript programming is a competitor to React's style.
11:30:29 From Eric Dobbs https://observablehq.com/@observablehq/inspector
11:31:43 From Robert Best Maybe I can disable to tap to speak on my phone so I done accidentally pocket-speak :P
11:32:14 From Jeff Miller oh gosh touch screens are a menace where's the hard flip case like a Palm Pilot?
11:36:48
11:36:48 From Jeff Miller drop handler to add a "create" object? if you don't do a full-up job, it leaves space for people to join :) if you don't lock things downâ¨and you don't guarantee consistency....
11:37:55 From Jeff Miller unknown unknowns :)
11:39:41 From Jeff Miller the telephone operator? Geraldine: "We're the telephone company, sir. We don't care. We don't have to."
11:41:20 From Jeff Miller staffing level? morale? team cohesion? {how do you put people in a causal loop diagram?)
11:42:48 From Jeff Miller mass production â¨requires people to be treated as machinesâ¨to be coordinated in a mechanical wayâ¨supporting large-scale simple scalability "Technlology and Culture"
11:43:16 From Ward Cunningham http://found.ward.fed.wiki/technology-and-culture.html
11:44:07 From Jeff Miller ^-- Ursula Franklin's observations "planning does not respect the possibilities of humans embracing a situation"
11:45:28 From Paul Rodwell https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/03/amazing-structure-a-conversation-with-ursula-franklin/284349/
11:47:59
11:47:59 From Jeff Miller "we see the technical system; we don't see the sociotechnical system" (nodding along with Brian Marick's "Oddly Influenced" podcast) Taylorism <--> Finance Capitalism
11:49:12 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Franklin
11:49:22 From Jeff Miller "The Man who Skiied El Capitan" ? Extreme Skiing -> XP Trees Are Not Your Friend on a slope
11:50:35 From Jeff Miller "Vensim doesn't have a place for the numans"
11:50:57 From Ward Cunningham https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxO4oOuQZ9g
11:51:12 From Jeff Miller Cybernetics (Norbert Wiener): "The Human Use of Human Beings" we're an unlicensed Delphi pool in the sense of John Brunner's Future Shock
11:51:47 From Ward Cunningham https://unofficialnetworks.com/2023/02/27/what-makes-skiing-corbets-couloir-so-challenging/
11:51:53 From Jeff Miller (only government gets to own sense-making in that book)
11:53:57 From Jeff Miller (Marc describes working with Kerry about VSM, SoFi, and ways of including human elements via "liveness of", "beauty of") the instrumentality of rules (to Marc's "if you needed a policeman for which fork you use at dinner")
11:55:34 From Jeff Miller [contrary to this? "mean girls" patterns? Tyranny of Structurelessness elevates circumstantial insiders?] hmmâ¨still thinking that there are small insider abuse patternsâ¨though maybe not at the technocracy and authoritarian scale
11:56:59 From Jeff Miller though curiously, human disaster response tends to be cooperative!
11:57:09 From Kerry Turner I have been overhearing the conversation and we can have people in models. Let me talk about how?
11:57:41 From Jeff Miller Kerry wants the floor? a good point! if you want small government you need small business for scales to be comparable
12:00:07 From Jeff Miller Kerry discusses how to have people in your models Businesses tend to model top-down and that they rarely get down to the level of people they model people in the aggregate
12:00:44 From Marc Pierson Deming understood that the proper purpose of businesses is to employ people.
12:01:04 From Jeff Miller and not affordances for people that are the ground of the org; it doesn't have to be like that
12:02:40 From Jeff Miller The relationship diagram here makes sense in some particular points, particularly in what NOT to say or do. (from experience)
12:03:11 From Marc Pierson Cybernetics of family therapy: https://www.google.com/search?q=cybernetics+family+therapy&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS563US563&oq=cybernetics+of+famil&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgBEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyCAgBEAAYFhgeMggIAhAAGBYYHjIKCAMQABiGAxiKBdIBCDcyMTdqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
12:03:17 From Jeff Miller Kerry points out that you can look at the system you're trying to influence, and the system in the room. Can you get the people to open up into what's important to their effective teamwork? Are they willing to be that open and deep about real issues?
12:04:33 From Jeff Miller Being a learning org means going deep enough to solve the problems with each other.
12:05:13 From Kerry Turner Our organisations turn people into machines
12:05:47 From Jeff Miller Eric points out a "blameless incident review" is a good aim; however, the perversion of the process of blamelessness can generate moves which obscure the actual point in time when the difficult event happened. "how was it that Eric made a mistake in this context?" "What were the systemic pressures that anyone might be subject to?" "Was there anything about our team's preparation of Eric for this role?"
12:07:06 From Jeff Miller How do you have healthy conflict in the presense of the need to deflect blame?
12:07:17 From Paul Rodwell and it could just have easily been somebody else in the same position
12:07:30 From Jeff Miller the need to deflect blame in order to keep organizational effectiveness right! "it could have been anyone; the person on duty was [...], and that person was [...]" and we didn't prepare [...] because our onboarding is sketchy
12:08:31 From Jeff Miller (or whatever) so that would have been "and that set Eric up for failure"
12:09:42 From Jeff Miller my version from Kerry's prompt (which made me think about system incident response!) http://pixiereport.com/view/taking-responsibility/view/level-of-curiosity/view/causal-loop-drafts
12:10:37 From Marc Pierson Personal models are NOT group models. The group must make their own models.
12:11:54 From Jeff Miller reminds me of something I always wanted to do but never managed to orchestrate; every team member separately draws the system they work with as a team; then they bring their pictures together like the Supercollaborator "this thing works for me, I'll double down on getting good at it!" (personal models)
12:12:55 From Marc Pierson For Kerry, thee only outcome for a model is to do an experimentâto learn something.
12:13:10 From Jeff Miller unconditioned reactions;â¨conditioned reactions.
12:13:49 From Marc Pierson (Social) Systems Thinking https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Without-Answers-Ronald-Heifetz/dp/0674518586/ref=sr_1_6?crid=11LRNSWQK2VX3&keywords=heifetz+adaptive+leadership&qid=1692558859&sprefix=heifit%2Caps%2C211&sr=8-6
12:16:00 From Jeff Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Heifetz "Formerly a Clinical Instructor in Psychiatry at Harvard"
12:17:22 From Marc Pierson My take on leadership: https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/leading-coalitions
12:18:15 From Jeff Miller "We go where we go together." {take a break, analyze a puzzling situation both in business and technical terms) "Do not let yourself be isolated."
12:19:05 From Eric Dobbs Random association⌠quote from Top Gun (1980s movie) âyou never leave your wingman.â
12:19:25 From Jeff Miller (I had good "let's go for a walk" experiences with David Vydra while we were on a transformational technical project)
12:19:46 From Marc Pierson Kerryâs CLD instructions: https://cld.relocalizecreativity.net/view/cld-instructions
12:19:51 From Jeff Miller He was "PM" and I was "Dev" in that project.
12:21:01 From Marc Pierson These are the kind of tools we can and will realize in the FedWiki. WE meaning all of us. :>)
12:21:34 From Jeff Miller if your best tool is a 3x5 card ... (CLD, etc.)
12:22:20 From Marc Pierson Bohemian Dialogue solves these problems in conversations. We did an early experiment here.
12:23:15 From Jeff Miller "can we not plan our counter remark while someone else is talking, just for today?" - Ward's discussion of a coach / player who was sensitive to how discussions tend to go well or not
12:23:29 From Marc Pierson OmniGraffle allows models to be deconstructed and built back up.
12:25:51 From Jeff Miller it's a good play if you want to raise your profile as a consultant? (fill the air with your message?)
12:28:46
12:28:46 From Jeff Miller or about preserving the things that sustain the liveness of the human conversation? (cybernetics models) that's an impressive technical rabbit hole huh
12:29:52 From Jeff Miller I'd really want to unpack "GSD" but maybe the connecting arrows would tell
12:30:13 From Paul Rodwell needs government to be âbigâ enough to take on big food.
12:31:23 From Jeff Miller "DIO" model a reinforcing loop people getting together to do shit supports interaction, belonging, fun activity supports
12:32:47 From Jeff Miller good shit done supports telling my mates entering loop: "Open to all" needed to operate the reinforcing loop interaction, belonging, fun activity supports health
12:33:49 From Jeff Miller also: good shit done opposes needing others to do shit for us needing others -- ? --> economy?
12:35:05 From Jeff Miller needing others also opposes good pride ? good pride supports good shit done also, health
12:36:33 From Jeff Miller -- ? --> Healthcare needing others also opposes resilience resilience supports health
12:39:04
12:39:04 From Jeff Miller (cooking for others is something I think of) (helping people move things and clean)
12:40:02 From Paul Rodwell Link - The Global Food System: Too Big to Fix? - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001pm7g
12:40:03 From Jeff Miller carpet sweeper? (Hoky, for example?)
12:41:38 From Jeff Miller Eric says: the greatest determinant of success in recovering from addiction is positive group support (a research reoport) * report
12:42:39 From Jeff Miller Swanson desserts do have actual apple in them?
12:43:09 From Paul Rodwell but the cherries are made from algae
12:43:35 From Jeff Miller people are making their livingâ¨off of other people's casual fashion choicesâ¨not so great as an escapable system
12:43:45 From Paul Rodwell https://sdg.iisd.org/events/2023-un-food-systems-stocktaking-moment/
12:43:46 From Jeff Miller Roundup-Ready Soy animal feedstock low-carb (low-grain) -> different flora -> less inflammation
12:44:56 From Jeff Miller an apple a day keeps the doctor away (etc.) dynamical attractors addiction mechanism for salty, starchy, sugary foods may relate to the gut biome secreting craving chemicals?
12:46:12 From Jeff Miller household experience of low-carb: it's easier to stay on low-carb the longer you stay on it it's easier to resume low-carb after you've been on it a while
12:47:28 From Jeff Miller there are lots of secondary terrible medical practicioner behaviors around food and obesity that don't actually help
12:47:33 From Paul Rodwell gut-brain-axis
12:48:03 From Jeff Miller and there's a lot of willpower bro-ish culture around it which I find not happy-making
12:48:10 From Paul Rodwell https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(22)00092-5/fulltext#seccesectitle0004
12:49:16 From Jeff Miller Eric observes that cutting out grain in diet, and using Feldenkrais motion and other supports for cognition; all these things together produced observable progress in back pain and healthiness in a month grain-free breads "Against the Grain" chews like bread, toasts like bread you can make sandwiches and it's fine
12:50:47 From Jeff Miller a difficult month, but easier after that [the diet we've tried here is To Quiet Inflammation (TQI) ]
12:53:49
12:53:49 From Jeff Miller measuring everything by the volume of monetary transactions in the short term it might be useful in the long term it is not so good (steering on the road, not choosing which road)
12:55:06 From Jeff Miller What keeps a community healthy for (enough) members? [context: discussing human dynamics] Zoom has brought me FedWiki and CoffeeOps
12:56:18 From Jeff Miller so I think computers have been powerfully generative for me and humans may or may not be a good fit
12:57:36 From Jeff Miller reading handwriting (slower and better processed?) versus reading a single typeface (casual, too rapidly scanned, less well taken in?) "If you want a friend in [business], get a dog?" Big Visible Charts
12:58:42 From Paul Rodwell there is research with eye tracking that we donât read every word when looking at typewritten text.
12:58:51 From Jeff Miller computers aren't ambient in that way