Text extraction. See Typescript Archive
09:07:46
09:07:46 From Jeff Miller Dr. Cat Hicks on cadence, systems, and seeing how things work. https://www.drcathicks.com/post/on-craft
09:09:07 From Jeff Miller grey paperclip goo ? riding the tiger of stock-based compensation :)
09:10:10 From Jeff Miller (thinking of growth-focused priorities trampling everything else) better faster cheaper, small autonomous units (to "drone warfare")
09:11:42 From Jeff Miller (discussion of the Metaphorum, and Marc and Kerry's successful introduction there)
09:15:50
09:15:50 From Jeff Miller Do we have any demos?
09:16:56 From Paul Rodwell I don’t (have a demo that is)
09:17:54 From Jeff Miller Dorian Taylor, "The Nature of Software" in conversation with Christopher Alexander's "The Nature of Order" https://the.natureof.software/
09:19:30 From Jeff Miller the author's site -- he's a self-aware designer and a fan of the semantic web: https://doriantaylor.com/
09:20:54 From Jeff Miller (Ward and Marc discussing "aha" insights, the notion of seekingcoherence, ways of making information accessible to an audience -- an index? [JM: a visual site map?] ) (Ward discussing the happy affordances of keystroke-at-a-time search over text in wiki sites)
09:22:20 From Peter Dimitrios Transformers.js in a browser WASM ONNX Arrow 100MB wikipedia dataset https://www.leebutterman.com/2023/06/01/offline-realtime-embedding-search.html (2023-06-01): https://github.com/xenova/transformers.js
09:22:54 From Jeff Miller (discussing the footer search, instantly updated for every edit, brings in pages in the neighborhood: "mini-search" v1 and then v2 supporting the results) (Ward's account of Paul's description of the mini-search library and how to bring it into WIki)
09:24:49 From Jeff Miller (Having both new and old search available meant that FedWiki client has to be able to handle either v1 or v2 results, which might be cached or otherwise present when rendered) Federated results from v1-equipped sites and v2-equipped sites v2-equipped sites reindex every time you restart the server
09:26:24 From Jeff Miller "offline realtime Wikipedia search!"
09:27:33 From Jeff Miller That's pretty remarkable!
09:30:45
09:30:45 From Jeff Miller Journalistic conventions, a point per paragraph (Peter D) -> is there a comparable Wiki convention with out-links to details? Thompson Morrison's diagram approach: "this page and all the pages it cites". "first-order references, second-order references" - uses this to establish the context of the page, to look at the other pages for a coherent set of ideas, or seeing that there's a missing page
09:32:01 From Marc Pierson Take the graphviz code just above the journal and past it into a graphviz plugin at the end of any of your pages. https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/volunteerism-business-model
09:32:39 From Ward Cunningham http://found.ward.fed.wiki/jeff-jarvis-on-copyright.html
09:33:32 From Paul Rodwell The code that extracts the data for those graphs is Ward’s
09:37:10
09:37:10 From Jeff Miller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9PNcKq5zso
09:43:55
09:43:55 From Jeff Miller (Marc describes the way that he constructs a graph to show the way that concepts connect to a page; also describes how to use rosters to define a neighborhood used for search and for finding page references)
09:48:10
09:48:10 From Paul Rodwell creating a depth first tree
09:53:28
09:53:28 From Jeff Miller (Ward describes the Visitor style pattern for traversing the page or the lineup; the plugin page for the Lineup Diagram is a working example of the Graphviz programmable format)
09:54:45 From Jeff Miller (video games as an out-of-the-box experience; that the tutorial is embedded in the early game - Eric's point)
09:55:40 From Paul Rodwell unlike wurm that starts out being complex and slow, but with experience become quicker
09:55:50 From Jeff Miller Peter D says: "Javascript is gentle in that way, you can do useful things immediately"
09:56:27 From Marc Pierson Eric, I would like to see what you referred to: Games teach at the level of the user.
09:58:54 From Jeff Miller Browser as almost-an-IDE, though the CORS security restrictions are agianst that. http://jeff.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/sunday-explorers# diagram!
10:00:21 From Jeff Miller http://wellspring.fed.wiki/view/disruptive-orthogonal-planes/
10:01:53 From Jeff Miller http://wellspring.fed.wiki/view/disruptive-orthogonal-planes/book.reimage.fed.wiki/preview-next-diagram
10:03:03 From Jeff Miller (for the first page, read the DOT recipe from the named page)
10:05:06 From Jeff Miller Preview Next Diagram Here is the page that is the template for main navigational diagram used in this wiki. Changes to the code in this diagram will change the drawing of all those diagrams that reference this page. from book.reimage.fed.wiki
10:07:45
10:07:45 From Jeff Miller I should turn on the network panel when I look at the diagram.
10:08:12 From Paul Rodwell this code all predates adding links to the sitemap
10:09:04 From Jeff Miller the javascript console by itself is informative eval HERE NODE eval BACKLINKS NODE -> HERE (!)
10:10:17 From Jeff Miller Ward says: "this code is done in an earlier style, more based on Javascript callbacks; it's compact and expressive, however if it doesn't do what you expect, it can be hard to debug." Peter D: "how we work with Graphviz, it's powerful but inobvious" (Jeff M: taps own shoulders for "yes, not obvious")
10:11:40 From Jeff Miller Ward comments: most graph library makers feel compelled to support the classic mathematical algorithms on graphs, which bloats them.
10:11:54 From Paul Rodwell the layout engines in many of those other graph libraries are left wanting in comparison with graphviz
10:12:03 From Peter Dimitrios Reacted to "the layout engines..." with 👍
10:13:00 From Jeff Miller Ward says: Michael Mehaffy's work had enough structure in his patterns text which could be followed using regex "does a paragraph begin with '...'? look for more links; does a paragraph end with '...'? then look for different links."
10:13:22 From Peter Dimitrios Mermaid might be nice community / representation if it had the full power of GraphViz. But then, just bite the bullet and do GraphViz.
10:13:28 From Jeff Miller (a stylistic tip from Christopher Alexander which ended up being helpful) (exploiting a common style and format using regexp WHERE clauses)
10:14:47 From Jeff Miller Eric says: "the intersection of the Graphviz language and an inherently graph-structured data repository is a very happy combination" Ward says: Thompson and I have worked together iteratively on the graphviz visualization and the way of representing pages for Thompson's purposes.
10:17:54
10:17:54 From Paul Rodwell big bowls of spaghetti - reminds me of Thompson seeing clusters of nodes in a big knot of spaghetti in the hypertext super collaborator.
10:19:14 From Jeff Miller Eric says: The backstory here is that: * Thompson wants to make a pattern language using FedWiki * Thompson was able to write a program in Ward's language for graphviz rendering of wiki * The DOT markup in dialogue with the nodes as pages of a wiki which is about pattern languages. * In dialogue with Ward, the language of diagramming pages in Graphviz evolves, including BACKLINKS * Thompson's intuition for the shape of the pages shows up in the diagrams (a five-paragraph essay with three points made) * The diagrams are harmonious in Thompson's view * Eric's weighting by backlinks is helpful ("Agile Mindset") - the writing, the language, the diagram
10:20:49 From Jeff Miller Eric says: a happy discovery here; Mehaffy is writing a pattern language with different textual conventions, different structure for patterns; yet the ruleset for Mehaffy's patterns is one which is also fairly simple; it rewards the author for keeping to a convention, but not a precooked convention. The effective schema (says Ward) can be edited and adapted to the problem.
10:21:47 From Paul Rodwell http://npl.wiki/
10:21:52 From Jeff Miller Mehaffy uses MS-Word, but his conventions hold up when made into linked pages, from the pre-book document (Ward says) Mehaffy's clusters of four patterns is a typical structure, e.g. "Project Economics Patterns"
10:23:09 From Jeff Miller and that level of diagram with the four related pattters is interesting to reflect on the relationshps http://npl.wiki/view/project-economics-patterns as an example
10:24:24 From Paul Rodwell in comparison, ‘A Pattern Language’ also has cluster, but they contain varying number of patterns and are unnamed.
10:24:27 From Jeff Miller People who have the book and the diagrams say: "The diagrams are interesting".
10:25:31 From Jeff Miller When the diagrams are a tool in the process (Ward), they are more powerful than the diagrams as a report on the process (Mehaffy) actually should be a tool in the process (Thompson Morrison) vs a report on the process (Michael Mehaffy) game design tutorials!
10:26:48 From Jeff Miller Eric speaks to Ward's earlier question about embedded video game tutorials First Eric shows off a game controller from Microsoft the form of the controller
10:28:21 From Jeff Miller two triggers, two game control buttons, two thumb controllers, a diamond of colored buttons (A B X Y), and another four-position thumb switch opposite A B X Y Example: Legend of Zelda
10:30:08 From Marc Pierson An amazing example of neuroplasticity!!!
10:30:31 From Jeff Miller "This thumb control makes the character move; THAT thumb control affects the camera viewpoint; other buttons select weapons for concepts; or if I'm moving backwards and press a button, it raises my shield. If the character is falling, and you have your bow out, you're in 'bullet time', where everything slows down and you can target your enemies as you fall." Eric says: "the ways they teach you, the way you learn the game mechanics -- for example, you have to activate a shrine, and you teleport into a closed space where there are puzzles where you need to solve them by learning a new game mechanic."
10:31:55 From Marc Pierson Has anyone taken the trouble to help people learn the use of patterns in the graduated way Eric is talking about?
10:32:27 From Jeff Miller Eric says: There's a point in this map where you start, and the monsters nearby are low-level; you don't have an easy time of it because you don't know the controllers. Out in the perimeter, as you learn the controls, the monsters are tougher." Eric says: game designers have the advantage of a closed world.
10:32:41 From Marc Pierson I imagine learning governing in the way Eric is discussing.
10:32:52 From Jeff Miller Model United Nations?
10:33:00 From Peter Dimitrios "Gamification" in business has largely become about just getting people to compete. The design of the 'game play' is often tertiary to having the 'fight for the prize'
10:33:12 From Jeff Miller (actually I know an example at the college level: a replay of the election of a pope)
10:33:56 From Paul Rodwell maybe some of the variations of Diplomacy
10:34:10 From Peter Dimitrios I think teaching via gameplay (SimCity / Civilization being one of the architypes) is still underutilized
10:34:15 From Jeff Miller Eric returns to Thompson Morrison, learning the graphical tools for information insight, working along with Ward for implementing the tools for visibility, with Paul providing backlinks, and Eric providing Graphviz-in-the-browser.
10:35:17 From Jeff Miller (pattern language: they should be on cards, to pick out a set for your working process - Paul) Marc says: you have to show people sequences of patterns; people understand recipes, at least, and that would be a better way to learn patterns in actin. action.
10:36:24 From Jeff Miller Cooperative games (Ward's younger son) - rather than competitions
10:36:46 From Paul Rodwell collaborative MMOs (PVE biased, rather than PVP)
10:36:51 From Jeff Miller Marc says: "Neighborhoods need this, roles which will let people learn the processes" http://start.fed.wiki -- the starting place (from David Bovill's complaint that there was no URL short enough to yell across a pub)
10:37:52 From Eric Dobbs Back in college, I didn’t spend much time with this guy, but his research was around designing custom board games for urban planning exercises as a path to getting better design from a community process. https://www.colorado.edu/ics/ernesto-g-arias
10:38:09 From Jeff Miller add 👍
10:41:38
10:41:38 From Jeff Miller Long Chain of Pages! http://start.fed.wiki/view/start-playing-wiki/view/long-chain-of-pages/view/first-floor-lobby/view/second-floor/view/third-floor/view/fourth-floor/view/fifth-floor/view/sixth-floor/view/seventh-floor/view/eighth-floor (Ward does a walkthrough)
10:42:53 From Paul Rodwell there is a dwarf who throws an axe at you, and misses.
10:42:54 From Jeff Miller http://start.fed.wiki/view/seventh-floor/view/sing-another-verse/view/sing-another-verse
10:44:13 From Jeff Miller "Bottles of Beer on the Wall Take One Down Pass it Around SUM Bottles of Beer on the Wall"
10:45:16 From Jeff Miller http://start.fed.wiki/view/sing-another-verse NaN bottles of beer on the wall!
10:47:57
10:47:57 From Paul Rodwell NaN bottles of beer because the shop has sold out, so you can’t provide some beer to all
10:50:43
10:50:43 From Jeff Miller hmm
10:53:25
10:53:25 From Jeff Miller view-source:http://start.fed.wiki/view/sing-another-verse
10:54:17 From Marc Pierson I added a way for a elevator passenger to keep track of their learning.
10:54:42 From Jeff Miller add 👍
10:55:46 From Marc Pierson http://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/keep-track-of-your-progress/view/start-playing-wiki/view/long-chain-of-pages/view/first-floor-lobby/view/second-floor/view/keep-track-of-your-progress
10:56:33 From Paul Rodwell link to the eighth floor is on the seventh floor - http://start.fed.wiki/seventh-floor.html just not on the Sing Another Verse page
10:59:08
10:59:08 From Jeff Miller all non-US-ASCII characters are interpreted as '?' (Disney's old password encoding problem) invisible bug, since your password still worked
11:00:24 From Jeff Miller aha needed JSON view to understand "99 Bottles" { "type": "method", "id": "e321ea002b6b99e8", "text": "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall\n-1 Take One Down Pass it Around\nSUM Bottles of Beer on the Wall\nTake One Down Pass it Around\nSUM Bottles of Beer on the Wall" },
11:02:56
11:02:56 From Jeff Miller http://plugins.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/about-method-plugin http://plugins.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/about-method-plugin/view/bottles-of-beer-methods
11:04:07 From Jeff Miller mysterious green aura on bottles-of-beer-methods
11:05:39 From Jeff Miller (Ward describes using the programmable fetch capabilities of the search method in the context of a radio track of Barbur Boulevard, to make a map and annotate it with pictures; you need an on-all-the-time information source, so having an always-on resource is important) Yay Eric for trying to product-ize FedWiki! (though 'npm' at least is CLOSE)
11:09:45
11:09:45 From Jeff Miller Ward says: like Zelda's tutorial game shrine, we need a similar one for learning how to host Federated Wiki (Jeff bops his head, not getting that the plugin documentation pages are all EXAMPLES OF USAGE)
11:10:51 From Jeff Miller Eric says: in order to put up a wiki, you have to have a strong understanding of four or five things to make the right decisions in your context. Eric says: rather than try to climb the DevOps problem of running servers, I explored how a static wiki can participate in a federation.
11:12:19 From Jeff Miller Eric says: Andrew Shell was proposing a plug-in backing store for Wiki servers to have, instead, cloud storage, that then there might be a one-click install recipe available for Digital Ocean.
11:12:26 From Peter Dimitrios I've been using rclone to sync up to various storage backends https://rclone.org/
11:12:39 From Jeff Miller add 👍
11:13:50 From Peter Dimitrios Thought: fedwiki local javascript do it's own distributed DNS (independent of https) - ObservableHQ is one way, other distributed storage 'write to file', 'read from file if changed' (want HTTP 304 kind of semantics without a server
11:14:47 From Jeff Miller Eric says: "I've been pushing more on the static wiki affordances; and also the localwiki Progressive Web Application; downloading an installer for a PWA was a compelling form of publication. That's another angle that I've been chasing. There were just enough informed decisions needed for the one-click installer about certs, or assumptions about domain names, that I was reluctant to deliver it." Ward compares "commercial service" model to "mutual support and open source"
11:16:00 From Marc Pierson Take a look: http://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/larrys-eip-diagram See what questions come up for you when you look at this relatively simple diagram (patterned diagram).
11:16:59 From Jeff Miller Jeff thinks of bicycle shops as a technology culture where you can usually find a bicycle shop which is friendly to you, to help you understand bicycling.
11:19:11 From Jeff Miller Ward describes an account about "a department store bicycle" versus "a bicycle which you can use, love, and replace part by part" (and that's why you go to a bicycle shop) Ruby as a better Perl!
11:21:07 From Jeff Miller (Ward shows a Ruby languageserver script for the basic search service to handle queries to paths, in Ruby, to pass "Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *" and return the output of a shell script) Would a canned server script have the extensibility?
11:22:26 From Jeff Miller Ward points out that if you offer global search as a service, then it requires much more work to handle the forces that you must undertake when you're running it for more than yourself. "a personal Sinatra app with port forwarding" "an old Mac with a big enough UPS to make it through a power interruption"
11:23:16 From Peter Dimitrios security through obscurity
11:24:00 From Jeff Miller "How can we make comparable information systems in capability and flexibility to serve the needs of a community?" Atacama Desert (dry, hot, much UV) or Tucson
11:25:24 From Jeff Miller https://dhs.gov/science-and-technology/sars-airborne-calculator Ward says: "how hard could it be to put the calculator on a page?" "but look at how much it pulls in that it doesn't need." http://found.ward.fed.wiki/view/airborne-decay-calculator
11:26:36 From Jeff Miller What do the folks at DHS use? Their content delivery pipeline is very heavy, 144 fetch requests replaced by Ward's pruning down to one.
11:28:34 From Jeff Miller lines 22-68 are all stylesheet links!
11:29:54 From Jeff Miller Eric starts a demo "I'm going to demonstrate that the browser is RIGHT NEXT to an IDE."
11:30:18 From Peter Dimitrios Browser === IDE-adjacent
11:30:43 From Jeff Miller This starts with a page with "Testing Graphviz Plugin" as a link. "We paste the generated dot for Thompson's Anchors Visualized and hack the plugin until clicks work." Eric enters the Javascript console starts by defining plugin = {}
11:32:16 From Jeff Miller then says plugin.type = "graphviz" ("this is a plugin which handles graphviz items") plugin.deps = [ 'html', 'dot' ]
11:33:38 From Jeff Miller plugin.fn = item => (html, dot) => html`<div>${dot`${item.text}`}</div>`
11:35:08 From Jeff Miller (flourish: this adds a panel which contains a graphviz display of the content!) Paul suggests a way to handle relative links
11:37:22 From Jeff Miller Eric says: "if I redefine the module, there's probably some way to get a panel to re-render dynamically and be interpreted by the newly installed Graphviz plugin."
11:39:59
11:39:59 From Jeff Miller Eric says: "I'm moments away from being able to hack around at the Javascript console as a REPL, such that I can handle the items in my page context; that I can create new item type plugins; that I can save the plugins as files, and then save the result to GitHub."
11:41:35 From Jeff Miller Paul suggests that there's something in the ObservableHQ runtime which can be used to recompute things. Eric looks at the source code for the panelAdapter / define(runtime, observer) functions in wiki.js and sees where a new plugin would need to be added.
11:42:51 From Jeff Miller pnl.page.story.find(item => item.id == '0fcd..d2c6') oops wrong page, looks like a different page in the lineup with sample "lorem ipsum" data
11:44:24 From Jeff Miller "wiki.lineup" -- test pages in the lineup. "Do you still need these?" wiki.lineup = []; instead
11:45:27 From Jeff Miller wiki.lineup.find(panel => panel.page.title == "Testing Graphviz Plugin") wiki.lineup.findIndex((panel) => panel.page.title == "Testing Graphviz Plugin")
11:46:34 From Jeff Miller <- 5 "the panel whose index is 5"
11:49:27
11:49:27 From Jeff Miller mod.redefine('item#######', ....)
11:51:16 From Jeff Miller Ward says: "You could take something that's distributed, then hypothesize that a thing exists, then make it exist. It's a programming workflow."
11:52:29 From Jeff Miller Eric describes hanging out with the iPython crowd around CU-Boulder "you could hack around in their Python REPL, and save the result as a file"
11:53:44 From Jeff Miller iPython and Ruby/pry riffed off each other on this Paul Graham, bottom-up programming, ground-state, started in the Lisp community
11:54:23 From Paul Rodwell Tiddlywiki - an example of a practice Quine
11:54:28 From Jeff Miller Smalltalk, as a GUI-level IDE, was inspired by Lisp and Simula. add 👍 Simula's classes provided order over the ground state provided by Lisp (Ward's account)
11:55:00 From Marc Pierson Help if we have time? http://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/larrys-eip-diagram/view/grassroots-eip-diagram/view/converted-svg
11:55:05 From Paul Rodwell now, could be make FedWiki into a Quine? Now that would be a challenge.
11:55:13 From Jeff Miller Smalltalk: famously "a language written in one page" "classes on top of S-expressions"
11:56:36 From Jeff Miller Eric: "with the convenience of Bostock's compute engine from Observable, and the browser inspector and console, I have within reach a Lisp-like REPL which can operate creatively and interactively on browser content." Ward points out: "for ObservableHQ, you can pay for a pro account which keeps your service and context up and shareable, but may be closer to the language than we'd like to operate."
11:59:04 From Jeff Miller Ward says: "While so much of the Internet is a mess, a demo like Eric's shows us how much [paraphrase?] powerful, generative tools and languages we have at our fingertips these days." Ward describes "find, flourish, flower" as a description of Thompson Morrison's method
12:00:26 From Jeff Miller find -- create structure and content flourish -- explore connections, discover connections flower -- make the results beautiful Each operation, each step of this literature search, is done in a different context.
12:01:11 From Paul Rodwell flourish - Middle English: from Old French floriss-, lengthened stem of florir, based on Latin florere, from flos, flor- ‘a flower’. The noun senses ‘ornamental curve’ and ‘florid expression’ come from an obsolete sense of the verb, ‘adorn’ (originally with flowers).
12:01:23 From Jeff Miller Ward observes: "how is using a set of interactive tools for working with code and processes different for using a set of interactive tools for exploring literature and concepts?" (Eric's explorations and Thompson's explorations)
12:03:09 From Jeff Miller Marc requests help in figuring out why the Graphviz rendering of a three-column format of the natural world / institutions / geopolitical world are failing to render correctly. Ward and Peter wonder whether a piece of the SVG styling is being overwritten or corrupted such that the left column styling is missing.
12:05:28 From Marc Pierson http://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/larrys-eip-diagram/view/grassroots-eip-diagram/metapho.relocalizecreativity.net/converted-svg
12:06:30 From Jeff Miller http://metapho.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/converted-svg/marc.relocalizecreativity.net/grassroots-eip-diagram failing on the right column styling on Grassroots EIP Diagram http://metapho.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/marc.relocalizecreativity.net/grassroots-eip-diagram/view/converted-svg
12:07:49 From Jeff Miller Grassroots EIP diagram in the middle is okay now, but "Converted SVG" is failing (that was a slide-over)
12:09:06 From Jeff Miller http://metapho.relocalizecreativity.net/marc.relocalizecreativity.net/grassroots-eip-diagram/view/converted-svg and also http://metapho.relocalizecreativity.net/marc.relocalizecreativity.net/grassroots-eip-diagram/view/converted-svg the right-side panel in the lineup is failing in each case an ID conflict in the page DOM unique-ify the style IDs
12:10:11 From Jeff Miller a composite DOM can cause confusion if one page is referring to an ID which is defined more than once
12:11:41 From Jeff Miller aliasing or collisions in a global namespace an SVG DOM is operated by reference
12:13:07 From Jeff Miller if you reach outside an SVG DOM?
12:14:08 From Jeff Miller "remove standalone=no" from the SVG top-level declaration?
12:14:37 From Paul Rodwell https://caniuse.com/?search=standalone
12:16:18 From Jeff Miller Eric describes having experiences with cross-referencing with SVG gradients.
12:17:38 From Jeff Miller page not found! https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/xmlStandalone
12:19:34 From Jeff Miller Mozilla Foundation -> Mozilla Corporation ($)
12:20:00 From Paul Rodwell I tend to use https://devdocs.io/ which downloads the content from MDN and elsewhere
12:20:05 From Jeff Miller “The health of the internet and online life is why we exist.” Mitchell Baker, Mozilla CEO so the AI is Mitchell Baker's fault?
12:22:40
12:22:40 From Jeff Miller (recurring nightmares about missing an exam or an airplane)