Typescript 2023-11-12

09:13:51

09:13:51 From Brian I've found staying up the day I arrive and then sleeping in to 8ish the next day, works best for me for jet lag.

09:14:52 From Brian local and on tap, seasonal is usally pretty good.

09:16:36 From Brian And steralization.

09:22:01

09:22:01 From Brian https://c2.com/ppr/ and http://xpdx.org/view/welcome-visitors was about when I got introduced.

09:24:30 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) I’m a put-stuff-in-chat-person, too (with the accompanying annoyed colleagues sometimes)

09:24:44 From Jeff Miller Jan: you may want to look at Brian Marick's podcast series (all of them with transcripts). https://podcast.oddly-influenced.dev/ haha, both of us!

09:26:26 From Jeff Miller my intro page with an old picture: http://wiki.c2.com/?JeffreyMiller

09:27:52 From Jeff Miller Wikidata development significantly from the German branch of the Wikimedia group. (from Jan) (to Ward's question about innovation)

09:29:18 From Marc Pierson Pattern Networks, p-net, three levels in a sea of patterns.

09:29:32 From Jeff Miller Ward describes data for storytelling in Federated Wiki.

09:29:41 From Marc Pierson The key is a pattern with patterns that support it and patterns that it supports. I am moving away form pattern “language” to net. More vernacular I hope.

09:30:32 From Jeff Miller A client-side "frame" script can interact with the contents of the pages in the wiki lineup.

09:31:00 From Marc Pierson HEY CHRIS

09:31:08 From Brian Replying to "I am moving away for..." Care to elaborate a bit more?

09:31:47 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyc

09:31:51 From Jeff Miller "semantic wiki" mentioned by Jan; collective knowledge gathering; Douglas Lenat (1950-2023) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Lenat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyc "a comprehensive ontology and knowledge base"

09:33:57 From Jeff Miller Jan describes Wikifunctions as an effort in the context of structural patterns of making knowledge assertions; a practice which some large companies have done in setting up their technical manuals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikifunctions

09:34:58 From Jeff Miller "It is closely related to Abstract Wikipedia, an extension of Wikidata to create a language-independent version of Wikipedia using its structured data."

09:35:42 From Brian Brands monitor and protect their pages, which helps too.

09:35:56 From Marc Pierson Ecology of Lay is worth reading: https://www.amazon.com/Ecology-Law-Toward-System-Community-ebook/dp/B00XZ7U0U0/ref=sr_1_1?crid=QDPSK7V6Y5RR&keywords=the+ecology+of+law&qid=1699807605&sprefix=the+ecology+of+law%2Caps%2C245&sr=8-1

09:38:54

09:38:54 From Jeff Miller Ward notes Wikipedia's success with admiration; their work on curating images; the encyclopedia has been effectively maintained in ways surprising to conventional economists. Jeff notes: though it appears to run as a commons in Elinor Ostrom's sense.

09:42:44

09:42:44 From Jeff Miller introductions Chris C: Superior, Arizona, 5th generation, community helpers, also working with youth Leo's Community Development Center a living laboratory for learning what Superior, Arizona wants to be, and how can we enable it?

09:43:38 From Marc Pierson https://chris.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/christopher-casillas-in-his-own-words

09:44:00 From Eric Dobbs Re: Chris C’s mention of 6th generation: I like to brag about being 3rd generation in Colorado and my kids 4th generation. Always admire those with even deeper roots in their homes!

09:44:01 From Jeff Miller Marc and Kerry's "Relocalizing Creativity" initiative is a strong connection for Chris.

09:44:29 From Marc Pierson https://relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/relocalize-creativity-explained

09:44:39 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Reacted to "https://relocalizecr..." with 👀

09:45:26 From Jeff Miller Chris's efforts in Superior - having quality conversations, starting to pay local community members for their work, using systems dynamics and cybernetics approaches to improving grassroots community here. Brian - from Washington State _(fixed, thanks!)_ - learning FedWiki as an accessible, interactable front-end, as an interesting change of pace from back-end experience and systems programming.

09:47:02 From Brian State/not DC. :)

09:47:09 From Jeff Miller Eric: understanding how large systems behave. A longtime software developer, briefly worked with Pivotal Labs (Extreme Programming and pairing zealots).. oops sorry Brian, Eastern Washington?

09:47:22 From Brian Yep.

09:48:38 From Jeff Miller Eric describes an anthropological approach, learning how operational teams work with large computer systems. Also interested in Learning From Incidents, e.g. the David Woods approach to looking at failure scenarios in large complex systems.

09:49:01 From Marc Pierson Now I aspire to be a tool maker. The tools that I make (vernacularize) are almost always build with he tools that Ward and Paul and Eric and others make.

09:49:12 From Jeff Miller Paying attention to the programmers as much as the software systems has been Eric's approach. The human dynamics of software development. (maybe that's a common thread across the regulars)

09:51:10 From Marc Pierson For me the fedwiki is the best tool for sharing patterns and perhaps the best for sharing knowledge. The way the fed wiki works plus having clickable SVG diagrams is pivotal!!!

09:51:16 From Jeff Miller Paul R: since 1980s, mainframes and big business systems; then the interface between search and large systems; working in British Telecom ... retired, and stumbled across Federated Wiki, and has been helping out ever since. Ward describes Paul's role as having a comprehensive view of FedWiki as a software system.

09:52:09 From Marc Pierson Wikipedia is the best for general information. FedWiki for localized, particularized knowledge.

09:52:10 From Jeff Miller Paul can evaluate an initiative in FedWiki to see if it's a good or risky approach.

09:52:16 From Paul Rodwell search => research

09:52:24 From Jeff Miller ah thank you! "Paul: the interface of research and large computer systems"

09:53:12 From Marc Pierson Cultural Anthropology!?

09:53:57 From Jeff Miller Jan Dittrich: media arts studies at Weimar; software design; domain driven design; cultural anthropology, Bremen and Ziegen (?), working on a Ph.D.

09:54:11 From Marc Pierson “Instructions to teach you self” seems like a big deal.

09:55:19 From Jeff Miller studies of bread culture in Germany; it's a cultural standard, and people with gluten intolerance have a difficult time, so learning how to manage that, or have bread that isn't troublesome; a Wikimedia designer

09:56:26 From Jeff Miller also wandered into visiting Federated Wiki,

09:56:49 From Brian I think most jobs at big companies are more about maintaining legacy code...rather than the exciting novel stuff...

09:56:50 From Jeff Miller podcast.oddly-influenced.dev

09:57:12 From Eric Dobbs Here’s one place I’ve expressed a possibly snarky opinion about software industry misunderstanding of agile. http://wiki.dbbs.co/agility-or-speed.html

09:57:53 From Jeff Miller Brian Marick's background includes editing "Testing' Magazine. Brian had something of a struggle with the Clojure community around his approach to testing. His framework was called "Midje"

10:01:48

10:01:48 From Jeff Miller Marc describes FedWiki's compelling attraction for his work -- also Marc hopes that curated general knowledge like Wikipedia can be a strong contributor to the localized knowledge which Chris is discovering and applying locally. FedWiki, in Marc's view, is a place to articulate patterns of things that work, and things that don't work, in their contexts; the right level of detail in writing a pattern, in the Christopher Alexander sense, to connect with the relevant details to enliven them

10:03:31 From Jeff Miller "pattern nets" is the term that Marc is using -- any pattern is connected to which others, three layers deep, which give you a context of understanding. Marc's background as a doctor and an administrator, who is now a tool-builder for knowledge systems. Marc has been a domain expert, he appreciates programmers who can work conversationally.

10:04:33 From Chris C Love you Marc! I’m going to jump may come back Cheers!!!

10:05:31 From Jeff Miller "domain expert" or "domain advocate" ? (strongly opinionated user)

10:06:34 From Jeff Miller Jan describes his experience designing at Wikimedia, and with such a variety of people editing pages and data, their workflow might differ in many ways; some people were more opinionated than others.

10:08:21 From Marc Pierson http://marc.tries.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/ddd-pattern-language-overview

10:08:57 From Jeff Miller Marc describes how he brings domain knowledge in human systems -- and how people interact, in the context of making things work for each other in the context of their needs. Eric Evans' "Domain Driven Design" is also a touchpoint for Marc, concepts familiar from other contexts.

10:09:46 From Marc Pierson http://marc.tries.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/pattern-based-system-engineering http://marc.tries.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/pattern-based-system-engineering/view/mbse

10:10:26 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects that having the programmers work in the job that they'll be doing automation support on -- that's a very effective direct knowledge transfer about what's important in the job you're working on.

10:11:09 From Eric Dobbs Brain: “all mistakes are not created equal in consequences”

10:11:37 From Jeff Miller Brian says: "all mistakes are not created equal; that's not a thing that transmits well in a software specification; it comes home for you when you use the system in the same context as the usual workers."

10:12:45 From Jeff Miller Marc says: I got involved in medical software because there was a "fuzzy logic' engine which tried to encode knowledge based on doctors' and nurses' experience in treatment; but the organization was not interested in building up a knowledge base.

10:13:49 From Jeff Miller Brian notes: fuzzy logic can have a problem with some of the statistical properties of your data -- if you have covarying properties, or conditional ones.

10:14:16 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Interesting paper on history of knowing the field one is writing software for: https://zfmedienwissenschaft.de/online/humble-origins

10:15:22 From Jeff Miller Marc says: in medicine, a fuzzy logic system with suggestions on what to consider from the context of the patient and the planned treatment -- all it has to do is to make the outcomes better.

10:16:53 From Jeff Miller Eric D: Understanding the way that systems interact is important for software engineering these days; that incidents of breakage -- often breakage related to information flow, that approach of using an incident to reveal and prioritize repair and remediation of your systems, and what you need to learn; when it's safe to continue, and when it's important to attend. As an industry, we see production incidents as unwelcome interruptions. As an industry, we should use these incidents to light our way;

10:17:55 From Jeff Miller How did our internal systems fail our engineers? How do our user-facing systems fail our users? both of these "what we want" , "what we have"

10:19:58 From Marc Pierson https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912707/

10:20:14 From Jeff Miller Jan reflects on the prestige of people who are doing work that isn't "cleanup"; the promotion of big, surprising learnings.

10:20:55 From Marc Pierson Larry Weed was the father of electronic medical records and the powerful SOAP note. He would have changed medicine entirely with PKCs Problem knowledge couplers.

10:20:58 From Brian Eric, my rhetorical question forming is that seems like making a CLD for your incidents seems to make sense. Then evalaulating how far the reach is of the incident, and how that relates to your "objective" function. For example, if a system fails, but the fall over works, and customers can't tell the difference, then the pressures are "surge capacity", money, engineering/IT resources etc. Or if the reach does impact customers, then it impacts users, sales, etc. Probably lots of insights to be gotten from spending some time exploring the CLD.

10:21:27 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Andrew Abbott is the "cleanness of professions"-academic -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Abbott#Research_areas

10:22:12 From Marc Pierson https://metapho.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/index/view/six-questions-exercise

10:24:23 From Jeff Miller Marc says: Today's issue is significantly that too many decisions are made too far away, at high levels of a hierarchy.

10:24:28 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Volkswage green bug order sounds like it could be from systemantics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics (whose author was a GP, I think)

10:27:24

10:27:24 From Brian I've been having thoughts that companies should optimize around 50 and restructure the economy around 10,000 more smaller companies... As companies scale, the humanity of humans is lost as departments get more standardized.

10:27:57 From Marc Pierson Dinner is ready here so I should take off.

10:28:12 From Brian Great to see you Marc. Talk to you later.

10:28:19 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Reacted to "Dinner is ready here..." with 👋🏻

10:28:37 From Paul Rodwell Reacted to "Dinner is ready here..." with 👋🏻

10:28:43 From Eric Dobbs Donella Meadows, Thinking in Systems. Pattern of oscillations. “Delays in feedback loops are critical determinants of system behavior. They are common causes of oscillations… Delays that are too short cause overreaction, chasing your tail… But if there is a delay in your system that can be changed, changing it can have big effects. Watch out! Be sure you change it in the right direction!”

10:31:08 From Brian open vs closed systems.... It's been obvious on TV for a long time. The History channel used to be amazing...

10:32:15 From Brian Same for food network, Discovery, etc.

10:33:25 From Brian If you control the strings, then volatility is your friend because you can exploit it more. It's not best for everyone.

10:34:44 From Jeff Miller Jan describes his interest in the history of agile software development and the arcs which people took since the beginning. Retelling the stories of the people who were there at the time.

10:36:13 From Jeff Miller Brian describes that the signers of the manifesto have strong and distinct personalities.

10:39:32

10:39:32 From Jeff Miller Jan reflects that the "Agile Uprising" podcast also shows the strong personalities.

10:39:52 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) https://agileuprising.libsyn.com/ has the podcasts

10:40:47 From Jeff Miller The "Agile Retrospectives" folks are not as strongly male / strong personality types. the people carrying forward Gerald Weinberg's work.

10:42:22 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects on a story related to the Snowbird meeting where there was a lot of contention and maneuvering; Ward was tired of the arguing and went out to get some air. Brian has the same sense that there was a lot of arguing out, like the US Constitutional Convention.

10:43:55 From Jeff Miller Jeff reflects that Thomas Paine was an advocate of a 100% estate tax and a common stake for new citizens (as an example of a strong personality in the US Founding Fathers)

10:44:42 From Eric Dobbs Ward has reported previously that Kent Beck chose “extreme” in Extreme Programming from two directions: extreme sports were in fashion at the time, and a political maneuver that “extreme” would be hard to sell to big corporations.

10:45:05 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects on the Smalltalk to Java migration of Patterns and Agile folks.

10:46:22 From Jeff Miller https://wiki.c2.com/?AllenWirfsBrock Brian reflects on the xpdx group in Portland as a nucleus of some of this.

10:47:27 From Jeff Miller Eric highlights the JUnit framework as an important enabling technology for XP - Kent Beck's port of Smalltalk's unit testing framework. James Gosling: "Look, I took the C++ programmers halfway to Lisp, I added garbage collection" (from Eric's recollection)

10:50:03

10:50:03 From Jeff Miller Steele also coauthored all three editions of The Java Language Specification (Addison-Wesley, third ed. 2005; ISBN 0-321-24678-0) with James Gosling, Bill Joy, and Gilad Bracha. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_L._Steele_Jr.

10:51:38 From Jeff Miller (a discussion of Java going from Sun into Oracle) except Windows which is VMS-ish (to Jan's "all operating systems are Unix-like")

10:52:20 From Paul Rodwell https://dblp.uni-trier.de/pid/s/GuyLSteeleJr.html

10:52:29 From Jeff Miller the infrastructure defining how people should relate to their computers; Eric considers that our container images -- with all the isolated dependencies; it's a bit of a throwback to Smalltalk as an image-based, always-running system.

10:53:45 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Reacted to "Eric considers that ..." with 😲

10:55:03 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects that "keeping developers out of production, sharp boundaries, version control" is an illusion; we have something Smalltalk-like -- a continuously running distributed image -- with complex distributed systems problem.

10:55:55 From Brian Clojure.

10:56:56 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects on the trouble of choosing a Lisp as a problem of divergence. Eric reflects Perl vs. Python development history - "more than one way to do it" a divergence of build systems

11:01:23

11:01:23 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) JS/Frontend/Feminism https://logicmag.io/intelligence/javascript-is-for-girls/ https://rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2019/01/30/html-css-and-our-vanishing-industry-entry-points/

11:01:31 From Jeff Miller thanks! (a discussion around the table about collaboration, about divergence of motivations, about who gets credit and blame; around libraries and frameworks which have evolved over time)

11:02:25 From Eric Dobbs Reacted to "thanks!" with ➕

11:03:54 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects: there's a sustainable model for a standard interface for software communities to interact around data and user interface representations -- what are the agreed points in common? Brian's reflection on how to chunk software - where do you put interfaces for composability?

11:04:50 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) sounds a bit the "collaboration across different contexts" problem: https://www.fordes.de/posts/collaboration_boundary_trading.html

11:05:51 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Residuality Theory: that I guess: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877050920305585

11:06:10 From Eric Dobbs Residuality Theory, Barry O’Reilly: http://wander.dbbs.co/residuality-theory.html

11:06:57 From Jeff Miller ty Eric!

11:08:28 From Brian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_object

11:09:05 From Jeff Miller "residuals" in a Finance context
"residuals" in an evolution-of-systems context (Eric's reflection on two different wikis having the same page name for two different things)

11:10:00 From Brian Information needs context to be interpreted.

11:10:20 From Jeff Miller present / present / present as an overloaded term, in Eric's example neighborhood / neighborhood / neighborhood (Paul's reflection)

11:11:22 From Jeff Miller Mehaffy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Mehaffy - patterns in urban design

11:20:33

11:20:33 From Paul Rodwell wiki mode was added to turn on/off item dragging which makes reading on mobile more challenging.

11:23:11

11:23:11 From Jeff Miller Brian asks: what entity in society should preserve the historical part of the Internet, the digital history?

11:25:29 From Jeff Miller (Jeff showed http://jeff.dojo.fed.wiki and reflected on the shape and his slow learning of the many capabilities of FedWiki)

11:28:17

11:28:17 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) which is what Computer Science is called in Germany (Infromatik) *Informatik

11:29:36 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) https://leanpub.com/eventsourcinginpython

11:30:24 From Jeff Miller https://github.com/johnbywater this John Bywater? ("Python eventsourcing")

11:30:42 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) yes!

11:31:50 From Jeff Miller A. N. Whitehead -> C. Alexander -> W. Cunningham -> (XP) -> Eric Evans (Domain-Driven Design) John Bywater was reflecting on an abstraction which emerged from Python Eventsourcing.

11:33:44 From Brian It's been wonderful conversation. Nice to meet you Jan. I need to finish some onther chores this weekend. Take care.

11:33:50 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) Reacted to "It's been wonderful ..." with 👋🏻

11:34:50 From Jeff Miller Eric Evans - many points of view, OOCL, needed a bounded context. "the accounting point of view" "the shipping customer's point of view" "a domestic customer vs. a business one" - British Telecom

11:37:17 From Jeff Miller Paul reflects on modeling the data and relationships in British Telecom -- what are the rules for how they work? what are the important dimensions?

11:37:47 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) https://pages.gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/agre/shr.html

11:38:06 From Jeff Miller "Surveillance and Capture"vhttps://www.google.com/search?q=surveillance+and+capture+two+models+of+privacy

11:40:36 From jan dittrich (er/he|they) I tried to write a summary for my blog in surveillance and capture: https://www.fordes.de/posts/agre-surveillance_and_capture.html (still messy…)

11:45:31

11:45:31 From Jeff Miller (Jan describes some of the things that allow Wikipedia to work at grand scale, using multiple levels of caching)

11:46:41 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects on Elixir microservices wrapped around a previous job's core Rails system. A difference in worldview - JVM innovations over decades, vs. the BEAM remaining stable. "is it a signal of a bad ecosystem? a good ecosystem?"

11:48:39 From Jeff Miller "A few Erlang or Elixir developers can support a system with a large amount of traffic." Eric relates an Asynchronous Transfer Mode switch which was failing, and which was saved by Erlang/BEAM reimplementation.