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17:04:54
*17:04:54 From jan d* things doing things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhdwMC2LjEQ
(2 min Vid on Actor-Network Theory)
(ohno, got moved to private š )
*17:05:42 From Brian* Zach, enjoyed reading some of your stuff...reminds me of this quote that I had to lookup Morale is the gateway to success. It starts with loving and valuing people, and requires giving people mission and purpose. Without this, the organization will fracture. Many of us have seen that. -- Chowdah Hill (@ChowdahHill) Zach Babb:ā¤ļø
*17:05:50 From Ward Cunningham* Welcome Graham. Graham Stewart:ā¤ļø jan d:š
17:14:17
*17:14:17 From jan d* oops, oven does things, be right back...
*17:16:24 From jan d* fire prevented, back
*17:17:09 From Graham Stewart* Re money : https://www.bibocurrency.com/index.php
17:25:01
*17:25:01 From Marc Pierson* A key distinction I have in mind is āmultivariateā interactions. So.. for instance fiat currency exchanges could be associated with other values, so that the sum or product to the values means more and different than just fiat currency.
An exchange tokens can be associated with NFTs.
*17:27:00 From David Bovill* @Graham Stewart I'm thinking of writing / interviewing about the money theme - I thought we could write on it with regard to creativity?
17:29:50
*17:29:50 From Zach Babb* Replying to "A key distinction I have in mind is āmultivariateā...": This is where Iām going. Stay tuned.
*17:31:44 From jan d* I wonder what david graeber and marcel mauss would think about currency. Graham Stewart:šš¼
His (graebers) early research was on that
*17:32:23 From Zach Babb* Say more. Or link to more :)
*17:32:56 From jan d* "The False Coin of Our Own Dreams" and "it is always society that pays itself in the counterfeit money of its dreams" sounds already like think-about-able quotes! Zach Babb:š
Whole book is: https://monoskop.org/images/3/36/Graeber_David_Toward_an_Anthropological_Theory_of_Value.pdf
*17:35:00 From David Bovill* Interesting - I didn't know about this text
*17:35:10 From Jeff Miller* !!
*17:35:31 From Marc Pierson* I am curious about the interplay between exchangeable currencies vs. non exchangeable, and Zachās āpartially fungibleā tokens.
*17:35:31 From Jeff Miller* culture set by Bill Gates' competitive family olympics
*17:35:56 From Zach Babb* Whenever I think of gaming currencies I come back to when people were using WoW gold in place of the Venezuelan Bolivar: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/08/world/world-of-warcraft-token-worth-more-than-venezuelas-currency-trnd/
*17:36:21 From Brian* When things are framed as "my" and "your" loss rather than "our" loss, then there are trust issues that may need to be addressed before that conversation can be fruitful. Graham Stewart:šš¼
*17:36:31 From Eric (he/himāBoulder, CO)* Replying to "!!": Current topic is currency and value (approximately) Just before you joined, Jeff, Jan shared this quote: "The False Coin of Our Own Dreams" and "it is always society that pays itself in the counterfeit money of its dreams" sounds already like think-about-able quotes! And this link: https://monoskop.org/images/3/36/Graeber_David_Toward_an_Anthropological_Theory_of_Value.pdf
*17:36:39 From Jeff Miller* (fetching the tea, am in the gable/garret room)
*17:37:41 From Jeff Miller* Replying to "!!": <3 thanks! (Immediately thinking about Janis Ian's "We live beyond our means on other people's dreams, and that's misleading."
*17:39:24 From jan d* Replying to "!!": Looked for a summary of graebers argument from the book; Last paragraph of the German Wikipedia seems to be a good summary: "For Nancy Munn, value is the power to create social relationships. This approach points in a completely different direction than previously presented theories of value. Graeber sees this as a productive conclusion of his research. According to him, Munn's ideas break down the dichotomy of gift and commodity. Commodities must be produced, and social relationships must be created and maintained. Both require time, energy, intelligence, and care. This brings us close to Annette Weiner's argument that the value of things ("transcendent value") is simply a result of people's efforts to preserve, protect, and maintain these things."
*17:40:38 From David Bovill* @Graham Stewart what do you say we try some interviews / sorry telling sessions in wiki regarding currency stuff?
*17:40:39 From Jeff Miller* the falling pages canvas wiki was a trip!
*17:41:53 From Jeff Miller* Rands' Leadership Slack except PPR Patterns Wiki
different engagement dynamics in FedWiki, needs more hand-holding and cranking to get the engine running
*17:43:32 From Jeff Miller* nod, thinking about TwinPages as an early nod toward federation
*17:44:44 From Jeff Miller* now thinking of Neal Stephenson's "Reformed Distributed Republic" with life-stake dares to establish trust and membership
(satirical, but pointing to how trust is established)
*17:45:53 From Jeff Miller* frantic nodding at Eric on "thinking is a community based activity"
*17:46:59 From Jeff Miller* conversation and representation of others, tuning words to one's conversational partners
and the more people in the room, the fewer and more mushy the words and sentiments (my experience)
*17:47:44 From Brian* Common knowledge vs shared knowledge
*17:48:00 From Graham Stewart* Replying to "@Graham Stewart what do you say we try some interv...": Sure...what helps you flow? currency
*17:48:25 From Jeff Miller* aaaaaahhh! (whitesboards as a common thinking canvas)
(Miro is eh, it's its own skill and it's not really whiteboarding)
(violent agreement with whiteboard as high-density communication tool)
*17:50:13 From David Bovill* Replying to "@Graham Stewart what do you say we try some interv...": I was thinking about real community stories - I have a bunch - and I don't see much currently published out there on the human experience front.
*17:50:15 From Jeff Miller* "How a cockpit remembers its speeds" - paper on joint cognitive systems
*17:50:27 From Marc Pierson* āGestureā as language? Proto-language? Pointing as gesture as language and communication. Graham Stewart:šš¼
*17:50:36 From David Bovill* Replying to "@Graham Stewart what do you say we try some interv...": You said we know someone who knows https://www.bibocurrency.com/index.php/full-intro-2/14-english-root/107-about-marc-gauvin
Replying to "@Graham Stewart what do you say we try some interv...": We could easily set up a set of interviews?
*17:50:59 From jan d* Replying to ""How a cockpit remembers its speeds" - paper on jo...": https://pages.ucsd.edu/~johnson/COGS102B/Hutchins95.pdf
*17:51:20 From David Bovill* Replying to "@Graham Stewart what do you say we try some interv...": And start with some mutual friends that have a lot of expereince in that space?
*17:51:22 From Jeff Miller* the Church of Wiki is in session. communities, tools, thinking
*17:52:37 From Brian* All of the discussion this morning, seems to me, to be in service to coordination.
*17:52:41 From Jack Park* https://www.amazon.com/Joint-Cognitive-Systems-Foundations-Engineering/dp/0849328217
*17:52:41 From jan d* Replying to "āGestureā as language? Proto-language? Pointing as...": I think Pragmatists had ideas on that. Marc Pierson:š
Replying to "āGestureā as language? Proto-language? Pointing as...": Pierce?
*17:53:07 From Jeff Miller* Replying to ""How a cockpit remembers its speeds" - paper on jo...": "In this paper I will attempt to show that the classical cognitive science approach can be applied with little modification to a unit of analysis that is larger than an individual person."
money is a collective behavioral dance
*17:54:21 From Jeff Miller* Graeber was in about "money of account" - depbt preceding currency
debut
argh, debt
*17:54:59 From jan d* yes! And with that also ritual money being previous to the "exchange for thing" money
*17:55:17 From Brian* All the "easy" problems are mostly solved...just have the wicked problems left...and that requires scaled coordination.
*17:55:45 From Jeff Miller* (maybe scaled coordination? or maybe cultural change?)
*17:56:15 From Graham Stewart* https://www.moneytransparency.com/msta-resolutions
*17:56:33 From Zach Babb* @Marc Pierson you are talking about arbitrage, and itās a product of price discovery being imperfect. When systemic imperfections contribute to arbitrage we tend to moralize them. Right now weāre pretty bad at fixing them Iād say. Jeff Miller:š Marc Pierson:š©·
*17:56:40 From Jeff Miller* RemoteProxyFactoryService (to Ward's compound role names)
*17:57:38 From Brian* To me, scaled suggests an 'n' of a few more than 10 but could be 100s or 1000s. Coordination means that there is a common purpose or some degree of alignment. That alignment could come from culture, but don't thinks it's limited to that.
*17:58:40 From Jeff Miller* the "good news" of different exemplars of behavior does not necessarily need coordination; of course that's about things which are not specifically money-like
*17:59:43 From Jeff Miller* teasing out and naming different forces and connections can be useful; it can be a trap, as well
chatbot as conversational help to API connections
*18:00:16 From Brian* Some computer person said something along the lines that any problem can be solved with another layer of abstraction and that speed can be achieved by removing a layer of abstraction.
*18:00:32 From Zach Babb* Reductio ad React is going to be my new way of expressing programming gripes.
*18:00:39 From Jeff Miller* haha it's still perennial, just as The Mythical Man-Month is still relevant.
*18:01:40 From Paul Rodwell* Replying to "haha it's still perennial, just as The Mythical Ma...": as is Peopleware
*18:03:13 From Jeff Miller* Replying to "haha it's still perennial, just as The Mythical Ma...": yes, alas. Peopleware. And "Prepare Three Envelopes".
*18:03:33 From jan d* need to go, see you on chat!
*18:03:51 From Jeff Miller* bye Jan! jan d:š
*18:04:31 From Marc Pierson* I would be interesting to experiment with values perceived by the āgiversā and the āreceiversā in exchanges.
*18:05:35 From Brian* Replying to "the "good news" of different exemplars of behavior...": I'm not sure I'm understanding the distinction you are raising. If the "good news" is shared, then there is an implied boundary object that is providing the coordination objective whether it is implicit/explicit or acknowledged or not?
*18:05:37 From Jeff Miller* strong story and clear mechanisms for transactions
Replying to "the "good news" of different exemplars of behavior...": "People should learn how to use design patterns to work in teams more effectively." - ideas as tools, broadly spread, locally applied.
18:08:57
*18:08:57 From Jeff Miller* seigniorage ? (the charge to create currency)
*18:09:38 From Robert Best* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage ?
Woops wrong link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_currency
*18:10:56 From Brian* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementary_currency
*18:10:56 From Jeff Miller* ah! (but shipping finance is very interesting as a domain)
*18:12:00 From Jeff Miller* Demurrage currency shows up in Illuminatus! (as part of the social philosophy discussion running parallel to the madcap satire)
*18:14:30 From Jeff Miller* <3 (reflective decision making, the value of spending time to people who bring insights, giving gifts of thanks)
thanks to Graham for the story of recognizing value
(recognizing value in what people bring out in us) Graham Stewart:šš¼
*18:16:42 From Brian* Maybe also had the oil rush that dumped a lot of dollars into Alaska's system for a while, and combined with the nature of the place.
*18:18:43 From Jeff Miller* I'm wondering if "exploration" is the right wy to think about alternate currencies, rather than examples in history first, as anchors for how to think about the systems and systems troubles.
"the right way"
*18:19:53 From Jeff Miller* Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars has a nod to different currency dynamics ("carbon" and "nitrogen" currency related to exchange economics and gift economics, if I recall) Graham Stewart:šš¼
(to the "science fiction" context)
Declarations of love can be reminders to spend that time.
*18:20:47 From Robert Best* Love is a verb
*18:22:00 From Brian* Love has like more than 30 definitions, a very versatile word that encompasses a lot of emotional space.
*18:22:38 From Graham Stewart* Intersting question re if we have to agree on what something actually is before we can exchange it
*18:22:46 From Jeff Miller* The truth is five, but Men have one word for it?
*18:23:50 From Jeff Miller* "do I owe this my time?" (to Zach's money/time quantity metaphor)
*18:25:07 From Brian* A currency based on time. Earned by being alive, and then spent according to how much of someone elses time was used to produce the commodity...could be an interesting basis.
*18:25:28 From Graham Stewart* From my experience with some āartistsā, being witnessed has more āvalue"
*18:25:50 From Jeff Miller* bye Zach!
*18:26:00 From Graham Stewart* i.e. it is to do with the value of attention
*18:26:37 From Jack Park* gotta run!
*18:27:07 From Brian* OBS for the win!
*18:27:38 From Jeff Miller* corner of the garret background for me
*18:29:04 From Jeff Miller* creative currencies (D. Bovill); happiness and love as a continuously calibrated motivator.
(not a fixed measure or countable accrued value)
*18:30:10 From Jeff Miller* "commissioning currencies" - you can only commission others' creativity and value, gifting + love
(I am part of a creative "Secret Santa" exchange group right now, where we are attempting to exchange creative gifts to our gift recipient's desired)
*18:31:00 From Graham Stewart* Perhaps the evolution of the concept of āmarriageā as a decision between two people brings together so many others to experience a celebration on a desision based on love
*18:31:32 From Jeff Miller* Californian/Greek love concepts?
(not a famiiar point of reference)
*18:33:37 From Brian* Replying to "(not a famiiar point of reference)": I think related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Love
Replying to "(not a famiiar point of reference)": But maybe a social meme thing now
*18:34:45 From Brian* I think that's because religion has a "power" aspect to it that often takes over the introspection part.
*18:36:20 From Graham Stewart* Worked in the past, āindigenousā currency, but not now, as there are no purely traditional communities
*18:36:21 From Jeff Miller* Replying to "(not a famiiar point of reference)": I guess that would be "partying and having fun" as a value?
18:38:54
*18:38:54 From Jeff Miller* thinking now of "kula chains" as ritual exchange of symbolically important objects; it shows up in Zelazny's "Doorways in the Sand"
*18:39:40 From Marc Pierson* Certificates rather than tokens.
Reputation backed currencies.
*18:41:06 From Brian* The tradeoffs with "certificates" or tokens as a cocurrency is it allows discrimination. You can't but this if you don't have the token, and in extreme cases, prohibitted from being able to earn the certificate...so I'm interested in what those tradeoff choices are.
*18:41:52 From Jeff Miller* nod, it's a real dynamic with real dysfunctions (reputation, reputation in different contexts, earned reputation, and reputation damage)
*18:42:11 From Marc Pierson* I am interested in the mix of fiat currencies and certificates.
*18:42:25 From Jeff Miller* in-company kudos rewards (IBM BluePoints)
*18:43:46 From Jeff Miller* reputation by domain (D. Bovill) possibly useful distinction
*18:43:47 From Brian* I see in best cases, a community uses the community currency to retain value and prevent exploitation by external ("them") communities. In worst case, then I see situtations like it being a company store sort of thing.
*18:45:33 From Jeff Miller* thinking a lot about the difficulties of reputation based voluntary societies (the troubles highlighted by Jo Freeman)
*18:45:38 From Brian* Currency is difficult, but to make progress on which trade-offs are preferrable, I think there has to be a definition of "coordination" for what the fiat is beneficially enabling.
*18:46:22 From Paul Rodwell* https://www.newmilfordcounselingcenter.com/blog/addiction/the-dark-side-of-likes-exploring-the-impact-of-social-media-addiction-on-mental-health/
*18:46:43 From Jeff Miller* a grand historical review might be useful to compare exchange systems and extract patterns and pattern languages?
because it seems like we forget how things go wrong
18:49:47
*18:49:47 From Jeff Miller* <3 to David Bovill's advice about human experiences in alternative exchange: "how did things happen here?"
*18:50:15 From Brian* I agree David, and to enable the context to enable that requires that people have a safe/trusting environment to have the conversation and to have the time to be able to participate in that conversation.
*18:51:35 From Jeff Miller* a protocol for understanding and telling stories about the experience of alternative currencies
charismatic organizer as single point of failure
*18:53:16 From Jeff Miller* hierarchy is auditable, federation is flexibly scalable?
*18:54:05 From Brian* The biggest gap I see with federation is that there are some things that are better being centralized...and I'm thinking of how a limited part could be added to fedwiki, that would close the converstation circle.
And that is my next FW experiment.
*18:55:19 From Jeff Miller* a conversation feed of events is an interesting point of coordination; it doesn't need to be singular, but it could (Bluesky)
*18:56:16 From Brian* I think the gist will be, if you want to converse "centrally" with me, you'll have to be a member of my farm. Then you can fork/export any of your site on my farm to your site/farm. Jeff Miller:š
*18:56:35 From Jeff Miller* Joint Cognitive Systems (Eric D.) --- The same shape of failure can be observed as a set of insights which cross domains, from Three Mile Island, to anesthesiology, to other business domains
*18:57:09 From Marc Pierson* Reuse vs. generalization.
Adaptation vs. instruction.
*18:58:30 From Marc Pierson* Problem. Therefore.
*18:58:30 From Jeff Miller* "once the capacity of the system to absorb shocks, the system goes into catastrophic failure regions" - a common pattern across "going solid" in a steam-based nuclear power plant, an emergency ward in bed crunch, etc."
*18:59:53 From Brian* "bumpable" works both ways in this context...:)
*19:01:24 From Jeff Miller* topic maps (Eric D.) -- analogues across domains (bed crunch, going solid) allowing common tactics in an emergency (bumping a suitable patient out of the ICU bed) scarce resource and contention (ICU beds) scarce control attention (ICU nursing, who is subject to being moved out of the ICU bed)
David Woods: "talk to the bed meister, the person who maintains the notion of who could be transferred out of the intensive care unit, a local jargon of what's bumpable mean here"
*19:02:57 From Jeff Miller* bed crunch : bumpable : bed meister :: going solid : ... : ...
mapping analogies across domains as triples?
*19:03:50 From Paul Rodwell* Replying to "bed crunch : bumpable : bed meister :: going solid...": bed blocking
*19:04:00 From Jeff Miller* analogical thinkng as a way of creating transferrable insights in system health and failure
*19:04:10 From Brian* Replying to "bed crunch : bumpable : bed meister :: going solid...": It's queue/flow management
*19:04:22 From Jeff Miller* Replying to "bed crunch : bumpable : bed meister :: going solid...": it's in the domain of queue/flow management
Replying to "bed crunch : bumpable : bed meister :: going solid...": (meaning: the concepts apply, the particulars are important)
*19:05:34 From Ward Cunningham* S10: There are limits on how well a unitās model of its own and othersā adaptive capacity can match actual capability, therefore, mis-calibration is the norm and ongoing efforts are required to improve the match and reduce mis-calibration (adaptive units, at least those with human participation, are reflective, but mis-calibrated).
*19:06:11 From Brian* I think CLDs need to denote linear and exponential connections...and then understand how close parameters are to critical points.
*19:06:54 From Jeff Miller* "Aligned Parameters" maybe, with viability being implicit in the domain / pattern language?
or "Parameter Alignment" if you're naming a process?
*19:07:55 From Jeff Miller* (to Marc and Kerry's systems alignment diagram, using a relationship as the unit of analysis)
*19:08:15 From Brian* Make the title 5-8 words, so start with the slightly longer one and then pare it down.
"from_node" increases/descreases "to_node"
That frames the page as being about the relationship, rather than the nouns, which I think is very much an advantage for describing a model.
*19:09:25 From Paul Rodwell* probably start with the synopsis, and then see if a title becomes apparent.
*19:10:38 From Brian* Start with long page titles and refactor later.
*19:11:31 From Jeff Miller* thinking back about Christopher Alexander's book and the anchors of patterns with respect to one another?
*19:12:49 From Jeff Miller* oh! (to Pete's thought) - the Solo Collaborator and overlaps depend on smaller, tighter page names; but for a more focused pattern, a specific naming discipline might be a better fit for the work?
*19:13:52 From Brian* I'd guess that `->` and `<-` are both `--`
*19:14:58 From Jeff Miller* "Latency increases Cycle Time" (to Brian's suggestion of naming)
*19:15:39 From Eric (he/himāBoulder, CO)* I think this is already suggested, but writing it down. 2->1 probably gets a slug like 2-1 1->2 probably gets a slug like 1-2 So that give unique pages that have titles that donāt help the reader. But the synopsis on the page can include the full titles.
*19:15:41 From Jeff Miller* "Error Rate decreases Confidence Level"
*19:16:12 From Eric (he/himāBoulder, CO)* Iāve also gotta run.
*19:16:21 From Jeff Miller* bye Eric!
"models are collections of relationships which are verbs" - to Brian's thought
19:18:53
*19:18:53 From Jeff Miller* evocative relationship names (Ward, on Thompson's work) Joyful Sandbox Believing Eyes
*19:19:58 From Jeff Miller* complex social relationships: - "the educator believes what the student is communicating" = Believing Eyes as the evocative shorthand
*19:20:08 From Brian* What are the nodes either end of 'believing eyes'? Student and teacher?
*19:21:05 From Jeff Miller* Thompson Morrison as a charismatic organizer of FedWiki as authoring system?
*19:21:15 From Brian* To me, 'believing eyes' are more of a noun/node rather than relationship.
But I am unfamiliar with the eccosystem.
*19:21:29 From Jeff Miller* (to David Bovill's point about how to use FedWiki and choosing page titles)
*19:21:37 From Peter Dimitrios* https://medium.com/@thompson_50501/the-joyful-sandbox-25dcad0df144
*19:22:21 From Brian* http://wellspring.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/believing-eyes
*19:23:38 From Jeff Miller* refinement of system languages in ways that are memorable and clear (David B / Marc in conversation about both joy in inspiration across domains, and the difficulty of capturing the insights precisely and usefully over time)
Graham - "fermentation" as an organizing concept - sometimes the structure can come from a different domain, and the shape is recognizable elsewhere
*19:25:09 From Brian* Prefix or suffixes...
19:29:30
*19:29:30 From Jeff Miller* "a workflow which leads you to the place where the solution is more obvious" -> "and what is the two or three-word title for this?" (Ward's process for answering a question, discovering and naming the topic; a sentence or two on why the words were chosen, and the paragraphs extracted from Matrix chat as the page content)
^-- how to name FedWiki pages
tagging the thought with a name
*19:30:28 From Brian* A good process...Is FW only enabling that specific process?
*19:31:12 From Jeff Miller* FW as the capture of the Matrix free-writing process answering and expanding on a question topic, extracted as a FW page
Eric Dobbs' campfire story as a personal not-very-forkable page (which I forked, then extracted all his paragraphs to "Eric Dobbs Campfilre Story")
*19:32:43 From Jeff Miller* (to David Bovill's thought about personal not-forkable wiki pages, writing to one's self; also sharing pages written in a less-personal way)
19:33:40 From Ward Cunningham
19:36:51
*19:36:51 From Jeff Miller* Ward's picture of Thompson's sense-making progress, with experience/thought and machinery/capture of structure.
Experience track: thoughts -> meaning -> wisdom
Machinery track: memory -> patterns -> story
*19:37:57 From Jeff Miller* Experience/Machinery, with wiki pages as a durable memory, then a durable pattern, then durable wisdom to be shared as a story
"When you can look at a sequence of patterns and can see them as a story, you're close to producing a book." (Ward on Thompson)
19:41:06
*19:41:06 From Jeff Miller* "On your opening keynote, explain this progression from thought to meaning to wisdom. Everyone gets fifty index cards. Write insights on green cards, write understandings on purple cards, get together at the end of the conference and write shared insights on orange cards."
*19:42:23 From Brian* memory, patterns, story are labelled machinery
*19:42:58 From Jeff Miller* social machinery like conversation patterns, precedence, who speaks in what order?
"Lean Coffee" as a conversation protocol structure for groups and topics
(to David B's "social machinery" thought)
brainstorming session protocol
Six Thinking Hats protocol
*19:44:32 From Brian* Great call everyone, nice to see and hear you. Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
*19:44:33 From Jeff Miller* (Thompson Morrison's wiki collaboration rules being an example of social machinery protocol, learnable by experience and collaboratio with others)
bye Brian!
*19:45:42 From Jeff Miller* "Let's get on a video call, let's think about and communicate ideas; let's take twenty minutes to write some pages; let's return and read these pages back to each other, testing our words." - Ward on Thompson's wiki collaboration protocol
"The thing we do in the week that we value the most" - a video-call form where we know that our thoughts will be heard and valued
*19:46:19 From Marc Pierson* Great call. I have to run a bit early today.
*19:46:40 From Jeff Miller* "six paragraphs and three outbound links, Wiki Haiku" - Thompson Morrison's page protocol
*19:46:43 From David Bovill* Have a great evening
*19:46:56 From Jeff Miller* bye David!
or oops "bye Marc!"
*19:48:17 From Jeff Miller* Wikipedia as a separate set of page creation and maintenance rules (versus FedWiki, versus systems diagramming, versus other modes of structured information)
approximate fits for the mechanism, enabled by a strong community
emergent communities from a communication mechanism / structure
(e.g. Discord servers?)
*19:49:47 From Jeff Miller* was it Stafford Beer's work
yes
"System 1, 2, 3, 4, 5..." as descriptions of feedback and homeostasis systems within a larger system
*19:51:25 From Jeff Miller* emergence of system dynamics theories and diagrams from specific seeds, which were (at the time) proprietary methods and software (SoFi)
the tools were narrowly marketed to Systems Analysts for Big Systems
family system dynamics (famously inspiring Gerald Weinberg)
*19:53:13 From Jeff Miller* Where did systems analysis go? -> big corporations and big organizations (RAND corp, management consulting, etc. -- captured by big-money experts?)
Marc's EIP three-column diagram
*19:54:26 From Jeff Miller* Environment as a biogeographical hierarchy Politics as a governance hierarchy Institutions as the bridge between hierarchies at various levels
^---EIP
Elinor Ostrom as a reference point for the institutions
*19:56:02 From Jeff Miller* What do communities need at base, to survive and flourish? (part of Marc's point of interest, bottom-up viable community based organizing)
*19:58:23 From Graham Stewart* Nice to meet you all!
*19:58:25 From Jeff Miller* (Marc as experienced in systems analysis domains for viability; Kerry as a sharp and sensitive interviewer and analyst, creating a diagram of the important and relevant relationships; the FedWiki format may have better dynamics for a more fully explicated description, rather than for working on systems dynamics diagrams?)
and you, Graham, nice to meet you!
*19:59:52 From Jeff Miller* FedWiki -- the notion of pages being mobile and extractable out of context, places constraints on what sorts of evolution of (named) content are graceful, and what sorts of evolution break context.
20:02:47
*20:02:47 From Jeff Miller* LLM generation of content, "Please rephrase this page to be written in second person" ? - are automated refactorings practical, and when? (speculation on how to reorganize, how to organize content; Miller Columns as structure for shaping dialogues, having a public or general wiki, having a personal, in-the-individual-voice in the columns as a quote particularizing the concept) - from David B.
*20:03:33 From Paul Rodwell* https://thefutureoftext.org/vr/
*20:03:43 From Jeff Miller* Pete D: "Future of Text" as having more complex and expansive ways of making relationships visible and intuitive for composing and navigation - using VR; there's still a notion of a visual space, of 2 1/2 D)
ty Paul! <3 for the link
*20:05:46 From Paul Rodwell* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_(video_game)
*20:05:48 From Jeff Miller* InfoCom - text-based adventures; linked textual spaces? 2026 is the 42'd anniversary of the Hitchhiker's Guide Infocom game - wiki as a new version of a text-space game?
*20:05:58 From Paul Rodwell* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Meretzky
*20:06:52 From Jeff Miller* David Bovill: do you know about TiddlyWiki's transition to Twine (wiki to text-game?)
*20:07:41 From Peter Dimitrios* Zork source code now open-sourced - Z-Machine - Zork 1,2,3 https://github.com/historicalsource/zork1 (Stacey Haffner, Scott Handleson 2025-11-20): https://opensource.microsoft.com/blog/2025/11/20/preserving-code-that-shaped-generations-zork-i-ii-and-iii-go-open-source
*20:10:10 From Jeff Miller* Ward's relation of a story about particular design for usage, a designer joining Tektronix (Roger) who had specific requirements for a three-button mouse, to exclude a bad number pad, and creating this interface as an important way of working in 2D/3D terminal environments.
(VR these days isn't as good, and in many ways worse)
*20:10:58 From Paul Rodwell* Replying to "David Bovill: do you know about TiddlyWiki's trans...": https://intfiction.org/t/twine-twee-tiddlywiki/7936 ?
*20:11:26 From Jeff Miller* 3D when things are moving 3D from binocular vision ^-- two different modes, hard to get both right
*20:11:31 From Paul Rodwell* Replying to "David Bovill: do you know about TiddlyWiki's trans...": looks oldā¦
*20:12:29 From Jeff Miller* Replying to "David Bovill: do you know about TiddlyWiki's trans...": yes, definitely an early transition; Twine evolved away from its seed platform in TiddlyWiki and has been very generative; but I have had trouble getting productive with it.
Replying to "David Bovill: do you know about TiddlyWiki's trans...": beyond the Hello World of textual interactive fiction, "Cloak of Darkness"
*20:13:57 From Jeff Miller* Myst as a prototypical 3D space with mouse navigation and clever minimal animation?
(to David Bovill's notion of the 42'd anniversary of HHG Infocom game as a virtual reality experience opportunity)
*20:15:38 From Jeff Miller* now wondering about the early Croquet world space and shared or particular points of view
Croquet's more recent use cases are about scaling event streams to allow timely coordination of shared events
*20:17:09 From Peter Dimitrios* immersive video gaming is the prime market
*20:17:11 From Jeff Miller* pursuing the biggest targets, with more human-scale or theatre-scale events being incidental?
Pokemon Go as a super-big distributed augmented reality game? Peter Dimitrios:š
20:19:46
*20:19:46 From Jeff Miller* "Root Sports" as a company for sports streaming originated by the local Seattle sports teams rather than the cable companies; an empathy of the sportscaster for the athletes. Sportscaster relationship, she described how she prepares to make crowd-pleasing interviews after the game.
(Ward's description of Root Sports)
*20:21:20 From Jeff Miller* As Root Sports wound up, a mutual thanks and reflection about how to turn baseball into an exciting sports experience, and how things were closing down and handing off to the Major League Baseball streaming organizatoin.
20:24:57
*20:24:57 From Jeff Miller* Video games approaching a shared VR space for more general sorts of exploration. (David Bovill's vision for a shared event, drawing from authored text, Roblox as a shared virtual environment, technologies within-reach, having VR actor performers and mixers and designers and modelers and texture creators)
the silly legless shared working environments promoted by Microsoft a couple years ago
(versus say Second Life as a reference point)
*20:26:27 From Jeff Miller* hmm Archive of our Own maybe as another example of writing collectives on a platform? (but that's story-form more than page-form?)
*20:27:34 From Jeff Miller* and Twitch as presenter-and-audience, with interaction and chat, streaming art creation, streaming gameplaying, streaming podcast conversations
*20:29:05 From Jeff Miller* I wonder if Victoria Campbell would know some of the San Francisco art community that does collaborative work?