Updated 12/20/00
I am evaluating Wiki Engines and Wiki Farms prior to choosing one for my own personal use and for various public uses. To get additional input from experienced wiki users, and help others, I am putting the review on this wiki.
There are other pages with useful information about Wiki Engines and Wiki Farms. I suggest you try the two pages in the first sentence, and then these:
Wiki Engine Review is the first page of the evaluation, and also lists the other pages.
I have assigned the pages in the review to Category Wiki Engine Review.
-- Randy Kramer mailto:rhkramer@fast.net
Perl, Python, Smalltalk?
I copied the following from What Makes Agood Language Good (where I put it).
Questions:
For people who use Small Talk and have tried Dolphin and Squeak, which would you recommend? (See brief note about my background, below.) I guess one criteria would be: if I try a free version and like it, then choose a more "advanced" product for permanent adoption, how much reprogramming of old projects must be done (to use them in the "advanced" product). Another: Will the free product meet all my needs or will I eventually want to switch to a commercial product?
It is the complete Open Source Smalltalk Language that is Free As In Beer.
Created and guided by the authors and designers of the Smalltalk Language.
Dan Ingles and Alan Kay
The modern update to Smalltalk-80 from an original license one image.
Create Morphic Interface Project instead of Model View Controller Project
Squeak Smalltalk does not yet support Model View Presenter
Dolphin Smalltalk is a good Win32Smalltalk.
Model View Presenter was a good change to Model View Controller
Moving your Project from the free to complete version is not that hard
It does depend on what your Project is
I prefer Dolphin. I found Squeak really hard to understand and use. It has some really great multi-media support, on the other hand. -- rj
Among Python, Eiffel, and Small Talk, which would you recommend. (From people who have experience in all three, please.)
Other Smalltalk Language
I love Envy Developer but can rarely afford it
Visual Works is very good
Dolphin Smalltalk is good if you are only interested in Win32
Eiffel Language is a good language
For scripting I prefer Perl Language over Python Language and use both
If you want to learn something "deep" from the language, both ST and Eiffel have something (different) to offer. If you want to write quick little programs that are useful, look at Python. Or check out Ruby Language. -- rj
Randy, I appreciate this page and other comments made elsewhere. I hope that it is okay for me to make an observation about programming languages as they relate to (vis a vis) wikis. I cannot help but notice that more wikis are written in Perl than anything else and that a major Ruby Language web site, Ruby Garden, uses Use Mod for its wiki engine rather than RWiki. Use Mod is a Perl wiki engine whereas RWiki is a Ruby wiki engine. This certainly may reflect the person-hours that have gone into the development of the two languages, i.e., Ruby Language being newer than Perl. -- Jonathan Smith 10 Feb 2003.
I put these questions on this page just to avoid creating ANWP (Another New Wiki Page). It seems there are plenty of pages about programming languages on Wards Wiki, and thus this seems an appropriate forum for this question. I have not read all the language related pages. I will start doing that, but I'm hoping some kind souls might point me to the best summaries or most useful descriptions. I believe there have been language wars on this wiki (Language Pissing Match) - it is not my intent to provoke another one. It is an attempt to be lazy, and not read all the pages related to languages. Thanks!
My background: I've programmed, mostly non-professionally, in many languages. Extensive experience in Algol and Algol like languages (PL1, Pascal). Also minor experience in a host of (old) languages like Lisp (sorry, maybe old isn't the right categorization for all of these), Snobol, LCC (Algol like syntax interactive interpreted language), Simula (don't remember a thing), Fortran, APL (almost forgot that one, wish I had), have read C and C++, some experience with proprietary process control languages (
My purposes: Hard to articulate a clear vision at this time. Current project is reviewing wikis. I've looked at Swikis (and Com Swikis) - they don't meet my needs as I see them, yet, if I could easily modify them ... Plan on learning Linux (coming from a Dos / Windows background (most recently)), PERL, and possibly other languages. Planning to document my learning experiences so that others can possibly learn a little easier, anticipate using a wiki for much of that documentation. (I know, that probably doesn't clarify my goals for a programming language very much. Would like to find a magic bullet, if in no other sense than as the last language I have to learn.)
My style: I've always liked the Algol-like syntax. (I learned Algol first, and then wondered why they taught me Fortran.) I prefer programs that are well documented, and tend to go overboard. My Visual Basic project (not finished due to job focus changes) was done in an attempt at a Literary Program style. My standard rant is about cryptic programs and that is my standard complaint about APL and C / C++.
PS: I've been a Dos / Windows / Microsoft Word / Ask Sam / Zy Index user for 15 years. I'd like to migrate to Linux. It looks like my initial migration will be to utilize server aps (wiki and search engines) rather than desktop aps. (X is rather a disappointment. I keep 20 to 30 windows open on Win95 (with 64 MB ram) with good response and rare crashes. In KDE, I can keep only 2 to 4 open with 32 MB ram (with acceptable response), and 4 to 6 with 48 MB (Mandrake 7.0).)
(I'll probably copy this to my home page, as it seems like a useful beginning (of something).) -- Randy Kramer
Dolphin only supports Windows, but supports it very well. If you are using Windows, I'd use Dolphin rather than Squeak. If you are using Linux, you don't have much choice. Portability is supposed to be OK as long as you don't do much GUI stuff. In practice, you will eventually find the commercial versions of Dolphin more cost-effective than the free one. (Note: I've only use Squeak long enough to discover I hated its UI.) -- Dave Harris
Thanks Dave, that's helpful! Now, how about some Python / Eiffel / Small Talk opinions?
Use the area below for messages not related to the Wiki Engine Review. I have deleted some older messages. I have moved (or summarized) most messages related to the Wiki Engine Review to that page.
Randy, thank you for your review work. I think you do a very good job. If you need help with German language wikis, leave me a note. -- Helmut Leitner
Helmut,
Thank you very much! I may take you up on your offer, although I think it is more likely I will stop reviewing forums soon and get back to engines. I know that Parsimony might have up to 25,000 forums, it is not my intent to review or list all of those. If there are some "major" forums of "general" interest, it might be appropriate to list those, but after a little more effort I will leave it to others to add whatever interests them.
Thanks again! -- Randy Kramer
I looked at Parsimony and they say to offer forums and wikis. But in fact the 25.000 forums are pure message forums. The only wiki I saw was in the help and support section and seems to contain less than 30 pages. The message forums are pretty disgusting with a large percentage of "adult" contributions. No communities, almost pure noise. -- hl
Helmut,
Thanks again! I had looked at Parsimony and found the message forums, but thought maybe I was looking in the wrong place. Thanks for clarifying. -- rhk
Message (Delete Me):
Randy,
How's the Wiki for LyX going? My free time is slowly freeing up (so to say) so if there's something small/easy to do, I can give it a try. Drop me an email if you'd like, I'm afraid my web-based email lost your address (for some reason). -- David De Lis
David,
Thanks, I'll check out your page and try emailing you -- sorry if your note has been here for a while, I haven't checked this page in quite a while. (I came back today to read up on closures.) I've lost interest in LyX, was more interested in Abi Word (and am, when I want a word processor), but most of my needs now are met by TWiki and Nedit (for editing TWiki pages) — I managed to create a set of Nedit macros that fold TWiki text files on the headings, which makes it very useful. Peter Thoeny has been kind enough to let me have a web over at twiki.org and I'm running a "site" called Wiki Learn (twiki.org 
). If you have some learnings on LyX you want to share, feel free to start some pages over there. (You might do a search first, I might have a few, but more likely they are still on my personal (T)Wiki (not accessible from the Internet).)
-- Randy Kramer
Randy,
Thanks for the Wiki Engine Review work. The Object Evangelist in me got detoured by your above questions, before I could make it down here to jot you this note.
If you are interested, I am willing to trade Mentoring you in Squeak Smalltalk (Free As In Beer) in exchange for your feedback on what aspects of Squeak Smalltalk cause you to trip or stumble.
Thanks for the offer (and sorry for this late response, although I think we did "email". I'm currently embarked on learning Python. (I hope when I drop back by this (my) page again, I can say I know Python (and not that I've switched to something else again). -- Randy Kramer
Great Work! -- Aníbal Rojas
Great page. -- Jack Wasey
Thanks to you both!!
-- Randy Kramer
Thanks for your contributions (especially Wiki Forums Categorized).
Have you seen these 2 other ways of finding wiki?
Switch Wiki (at World Wide Wiki) is a wiki dedicated to listing and categorizing other wiki.
The Wiki Node network is a distributed system. One page called "Wiki Node" on each wiki has a short list of pointers to related wiki.
-- David Cary
You're welcome!
No, I didn't know about Switch Wiki or the Wiki Node network prior to reading your note. IIUC, Switch Wiki has now moved to www.wikiindex.com, although a(n old?) copy remains at World Wide Wiki. I may do some looking around at all of those--thanks!
See original on c2.com